Zodiac / JJD / Shoes Speculation

[walter]

Jun 26, 2019 15:49:00 GMT mtf65 said:

Jun 26, 2019 10:50:17 GMT elir said:

Would JJD , from what little we know of him, shoot Paul Stine , take part of his bloody shirt and mail it back to boast about the killing,? The guy is a murderer , a rapist, a kidnapper , a shoplifter, and a burglar; despite being all those things he is not the Zodiac. Same general place, similar time period, different maniac.

First, Jjd was known to change his MO.  Up to the point of killing Stine, would the Zodiac have killed Stine?  No, he tried to kill couples.  He didn't get the job done, was called a latent homosexual and killed Stine to show that he could kill a man.  Why a cab driver?  I think it is interesting that there was a murder of a cab driver by navy personnel while jjd was in San Diego even if he was not involved.  After Stine the Zodiac said his murders would be disguised as different things and one was something like botched burglaries.  That is something jjd did, burglaries.  Also, the Zodiac crimes were about the excitement of killing.  That is JJD if you ask me.  Animal killing and overkill come to mind.  By the way, both were known to overkill except the Zodiac wasn't good at it.   M maybe that is why jjd over did it.  Zodiac killing is also about fame and building a legacy of crime.  Jjd likes fame and built a very long lists of crimes.  He told Navy buddies he was going to Hollywood, exaggerated injury and combat in war, talked about fame in possible writing.  He also took Stines ID and keys.  Sounds like jjd. Taunting police sounds like jjd.  What happened to the Zodiac?  Did he just quit?  Does that sound like the Zodiac?  Could he do that?  Seems to me like the Zodiac could be a couple handful of people and Jjd seems as possible as anyone else if not more probable.  The Stine murder is meticulously planned out too, down to taking part of Stines shirt to provide proof that he did the murder.  That planning sounds like Jjd to me too.  To me he just seems to fit.  I don't understand why he isn't considered and if not considered why not explain why it isn't him.

At the risk of driving this into the train wreck that is the Zodiac case - there are a LOT of problems with trying to make any connection between Zodiac and JJD.  On the surface absolutely nothing supports the connection other than - JJD killed people.  That is an incredibly weak link to make.

Going off of MO - JJD went into people's houses.  He had a near impossible to resist urge to look into, and later go into, people's houses and feel like he lived there.  And to let the occupants know he was there.  No matter what he did this over riding need drove him and you can see it in every single crime.  This isn't something he can change like pretending he broke out of prison vs he needs food and he lives in a van.  He ALWAYS had a obvious and expressed sexual component to his crimes and the Zodiac didn't have much of one (he wasn't sexually assaulting anyone)

Again - these things are the core driving factors for JJD (at a deep psychological level) and he can't simply say 'I will change them up'.  It's WHY he did what he did.  They are nearly entirely absent in the Zodiac cases.

He never really desired much attention from the media (the EC poem is very doubtful to have been him).  Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up.  He couldn't stop sending letters.

Those are things you don't simply 'change' - they are driving needs of two very different people.

NOTHING about the 2 killers is similar at basic driving fundamental levels.  They are clearly two very different people.

On top of this, JJD was factually not in the country for the CJB murder (and this is a smaller point due to how convoluted the Zodiac case is).  Now you can claim that murder isn't a 'canonical' Zodiac murder but he handwriting samples found on the underside of that desk was matched to the letters that were all matched.  I don't have any faith in hand writing analysis but once you start questioning all that, the Zodiac case as a singular killer largely falls apart.

Even in isolation, the Paul Stein murder doesn't fit any JJD behavior - he can't be put in the area and it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Finally, they SUPPOSEDLY have DNA from the Zodiac and they 100% have JJD's DNA and they 100% have run them against each other and 100% they do not match.  I am not convinced about the Zodiac DNA but people supposedly in the know keep repeating they have it, etc.

In the end, nothing meshes at all on any level except for the fact that JJD killed people, so did a lot of other people, and was alive during that time period, and so were a lot of other people.  This is not meant to trivialize your post at all MTF

[trabuco]

What I keep coming back to is when one stops the other begins just like VR to EAR. Then I think about the Zodiac, ONS and the CPK killed couples in moment of intimacy. Whether they were or not he thought so imo. Night attacks. The Zodiac being most brazen with the one daytime attack at Lake Berryessa. He used bindings, made them lay on their stomachs and said he only wanted money. I'm not completely sold on the idea that the Zodiac and the EAR were the same person but I can understand why someone would believe it. Just as I can understand someone believing the EARONS and CPK being the same person. Only DNA can say with 100% certainty. Everything else is speculation.

[mtf65]

Jun 26, 2019 16:19:18 GMT walter said:

Jun 26, 2019 15:49:00 GMT mtf65 said:

First, Jjd was known to change his MO.  Up to the point of killing Stine, would the Zodiac have killed Stine?  No, he tried to kill couples.  He didn't get the job done, was called a latent homosexual and killed Stine to show that he could kill a man.  Why a cab driver?  I think it is interesting that there was a murder of a cab driver by navy personnel while jjd was in San Diego even if he was not involved.  After Stine the Zodiac said his murders would be disguised as different things and one was something like botched burglaries.  That is something jjd did, burglaries.  Also, the Zodiac crimes were about the excitement of killing.  That is JJD if you ask me.  Animal killing and overkill come to mind.  By the way, both were known to overkill except the Zodiac wasn't good at it.   M maybe that is why jjd over did it.  Zodiac killing is also about fame and building a legacy of crime.  Jjd likes fame and built a very long lists of crimes.  He told Navy buddies he was going to Hollywood, exaggerated injury and combat in war, talked about fame in possible writing.  He also took Stines ID and keys.  Sounds like jjd. Taunting police sounds like jjd.  What happened to the Zodiac?  Did he just quit?  Does that sound like the Zodiac?  Could he do that?  Seems to me like the Zodiac could be a couple handful of people and Jjd seems as possible as anyone else if not more probable.  The Stine murder is meticulously planned out too, down to taking part of Stines shirt to provide proof that he did the murder.  That planning sounds like Jjd to me too.  To me he just seems to fit.  I don't understand why he isn't considered and if not considered why not explain why it isn't him.

At the risk of driving this into the train wreck that is the Zodiac case - there are a LOT of problems with trying to make any connection between Zodiac and JJD.  On the surface absolutely nothing supports the connection other than - JJD killed people.  That is an incredibly weak link to make.

Going off of MO - JJD went into people's houses.  He had a near impossible to resist urge to look into, and later go into, people's houses and feel like he lived there.  And to let the occupants know he was there.  No matter what he did this over riding need drove him and you can see it in every single crime.  This isn't something he can change like pretending he broke out of prison vs he needs food and he lives in a van.  He ALWAYS had a obvious and expressed sexual component to his crimes and the Zodiac didn't have much of one (he wasn't sexually assaulting anyone)

Again - these things are the core driving factors for JJD (at a deep psychological level) and he can't simply say 'I will change them up'.  It's WHY he did what he did.  They are nearly entirely absent in the Zodiac cases.

He never really desired much attention from the media (the EC poem is very doubtful to have been him).  Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up.  He couldn't stop sending letters.

Those are things you don't simply 'change' - they are driving needs of two very different people.

NOTHING about the 2 killers is similar at basic driving fundamental levels.  They are clearly two very different people.

On top of this, JJD was factually not in the country for the CJB murder (and this is a smaller point due to how convoluted the Zodiac case is).  Now you can claim that murder isn't a 'canonical' Zodiac murder but he handwriting samples found on the underside of that desk was matched to the letters that were all matched.  I don't have any faith in hand writing analysis but once you start questioning all that, the Zodiac case as a singular killer largely falls apart.

Even in isolation, the Paul Stein murder doesn't fit any JJD behavior - he can't be put in the area and it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Finally, they SUPPOSEDLY have DNA from the Zodiac and they 100% have JJD's DNA and they 100% have run them against each other and 100% they do not match.  I am not convinced about the Zodiac DNA but people supposedly in the know keep repeating they have it, etc.

In the end, nothing meshes at all on any level except for the fact that JJD killed people, so did a lot of other people, and was alive during that time period, and so were a lot of other people.  This is not meant to trivialize your post at all MTF

You say, "Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up. He couldn't stop sending letters."  JJD could have been the Zodiac and continued to send letters.  Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these  internet sites and started posting.  I think you would  have guess JJD would never do that.  Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD.  I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is.  He couldn't help himself.

[walter]

Jun 26, 2019 17:41:43 GMT mtf65 said:

Jun 26, 2019 16:19:18 GMT walter said:

At the risk of driving this into the train wreck that is the Zodiac case - there are a LOT of problems with trying to make any connection between Zodiac and JJD.  On the surface absolutely nothing supports the connection other than - JJD killed people.  That is an incredibly weak link to make.

Going off of MO - JJD went into people's houses.  He had a near impossible to resist urge to look into, and later go into, people's houses and feel like he lived there.  And to let the occupants know he was there.  No matter what he did this over riding need drove him and you can see it in every single crime.  This isn't something he can change like pretending he broke out of prison vs he needs food and he lives in a van.  He ALWAYS had a obvious and expressed sexual component to his crimes and the Zodiac didn't have much of one (he wasn't sexually assaulting anyone)

Again - these things are the core driving factors for JJD (at a deep psychological level) and he can't simply say 'I will change them up'.  It's WHY he did what he did.  They are nearly entirely absent in the Zodiac cases.

He never really desired much attention from the media (the EC poem is very doubtful to have been him).  Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up.  He couldn't stop sending letters.

Those are things you don't simply 'change' - they are driving needs of two very different people.

NOTHING about the 2 killers is similar at basic driving fundamental levels.  They are clearly two very different people.

On top of this, JJD was factually not in the country for the CJB murder (and this is a smaller point due to how convoluted the Zodiac case is).  Now you can claim that murder isn't a 'canonical' Zodiac murder but he handwriting samples found on the underside of that desk was matched to the letters that were all matched.  I don't have any faith in hand writing analysis but once you start questioning all that, the Zodiac case as a singular killer largely falls apart.

Even in isolation, the Paul Stein murder doesn't fit any JJD behavior - he can't be put in the area and it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Finally, they SUPPOSEDLY have DNA from the Zodiac and they 100% have JJD's DNA and they 100% have run them against each other and 100% they do not match.  I am not convinced about the Zodiac DNA but people supposedly in the know keep repeating they have it, etc.

In the end, nothing meshes at all on any level except for the fact that JJD killed people, so did a lot of other people, and was alive during that time period, and so were a lot of other people.  This is not meant to trivialize your post at all MTF

You say, "Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up. He couldn't stop sending letters."  JJD could have been the Zodiac and continued to send letters.  Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these  internet sites and started posting.  I think you would  have guess JJD would never do that.  Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD.  I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is.  He couldn't help himself.

Throughout all of his crimes JJD was never one to send any letters to the media demanding attention.  He would not be able to not tie his new crimes to these letters and brag about them.

" Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these internet sites and started posting. I think you would have guess JJD would never do that."

Posting?  Sure, it's possible.  I never once saw a single post anywhere here that would ever in a million years be equivalent to the GSK acting like the Zodiac.  That would mean there was a post saying 'I am the GSK, I killed ### you will never catch me, etc etc".  That never happened.

" Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD. I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is. He couldn't help himself."

JJD never showed any inclination at all on any level to brag.  Especially not to the media.  It's uncertain if he was registered on these boards but, again, nothing like the Zodiac letters ever once appeared here.

All of this is superfluous to the fact that the crimes themselves are RADICALLY different.  Entirely different needs moving two very different people to do what they did.  Not even considering the fact that whatever DNA they have absolutely does not match JJD's.

[dave1]

Jun 26, 2019 10:50:17 GMT elir said:

Jun 24, 2019 19:49:10 GMT trabuco said:

16-70 years of age with firearms training. He probably carried a firearm on his person daily whether part of his job or otherwise. Whoever he was, he was no stranger to firearms. My guess is that a day didn't pass without him holding and / or using a firearm. I don't know if that would narrow it down any.

Would JJD , from what little we know of him, shoot Paul Stine , take part of his bloody shirt and mail it back to boast about the killing,? The guy is a murderer , a rapist, a kidnapper , a shoplifter, and a burglar; despite being all those things he is not the Zodiac. Same general place, similar time period, different maniac.

Let me just start off by saying that nobody is definitively saying that JJD was Zodiac. There’s a big difference between being open to the possibility and getting a conviction in court.

Second of all, whoever the Zodiac was got away with it, end of story. Short of a full confession with proof to back up the killer’s claims, nobody will ever be convicted of any of those murders.

Last but not least, the fact that there have been no definitively good suspects associated with Zodiac in the 50+ years since the crimes started means that all of you going around saying it couldn’t have been XYZ person because of ABC reason has absolutely no idea what on earth you’re talking about. You have no idea who he was or wasn’t, and you shouldn’t be going around talking down to people for having a different opinion from you.

I’ll never understand for the life of me people who go out of their way to so vehemently argue against certain theories in a case that has absolutely nothing to do with you, where you don’t know anything that every other person on earth who’s read about the case doesn’t know.

This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You’re saying it couldn’t have been JJD because he wouldn’t have taken Paul Stine’s shirt? How the * could you possibly know that? You don’t, you’re just stating your opinion as fact and using it as a straw man to “prove” your point. You have no idea what kinds of things JJD did or didn’t do. They just officially tied the Ransacker crimes to him a year ago, a full 44 years after those crimes started. We have no idea what this psycho was up to.

If any of you think Claude Snelling was his first murder I think you’re very mistaken.

If any of you think his crime spree started as the Ransacker, or even as the Cordova Cat, you’re very mistaken.

Who’s to say he didn’t lose his mind on a gun boat for 2 years and decided he wanted to start killing people? Do the known Zodiac crimes strike you as being perpetrated by a season veteran who was used to killing people? Because it seems to me like he was an amateur, shooting kids trapped in a car and he doesn’t even kill them all at point blank range with nobody around? Not exactly a green beret.

I think the most telling crime in the Zodiac series, which really gives us insight into who he was and why he did what he did, was the Lake Berryessa attack. That attack is basically a ONS murder, only during the daylight and outdoors. And that’s also the crime you people talk about the least whenever this subject comes up.

No wonder these guys went free for so long. You’ve got a forum full of people that have no interest in the case other than their own curiosity who fight like animals over their little pet theories, imagine what the cops who investigated these crimes were doing back then. It’s a shock they solved anything.

Take your own personal biases out of the equation and look at this from a different perspective. There are a lot of things in common here.

[dave1]

Jun 26, 2019 18:26:53 GMT walter said:

Jun 26, 2019 17:41:43 GMT mtf65 said:

You say, "Meanwhile the Zodiac was PROLIFERATE in his communication with the media - you couldn't shut the guy up. He couldn't stop sending letters."  JJD could have been the Zodiac and continued to send letters.  Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these  internet sites and started posting.  I think you would  have guess JJD would never do that.  Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD.  I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is.  He couldn't help himself.

Throughout all of his crimes JJD was never one to send any letters to the media demanding attention.  He would not be able to not tie his new crimes to these letters and brag about them.

" Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these internet sites and started posting. I think you would have guess JJD would never do that."

Posting?  Sure, it's possible.  I never once saw a single post anywhere here that would ever in a million years be equivalent to the GSK acting like the Zodiac.  That would mean there was a post saying 'I am the GSK, I killed ### you will never catch me, etc etc".  That never happened.

" Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD. I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is. He couldn't help himself."

JJD never showed any inclination at all on any level to brag.  Especially not to the media.  It's uncertain if he was registered on these boards but, again, nothing like the Zodiac letters ever once appeared here.

All of this is superfluous to the fact that the crimes themselves are RADICALLY different.  Entirely different needs moving two very different people to do what they did.  Not even considering the fact that whatever DNA they have absolutely does not match JJD's.

Really EAR didn’t write any letters to the media? He wrote a letter to the media offering to let them “buy him out” to make him go away and asked them to make a movie about him. What on earth are you talking about?

Phone calls taunting the cops. Sending messages to cops via his victims. Writing letters to media. He wasn’t as prolific communicating as Z was, but he committed WAY more crimes and let the papers do the talking for him. However saying he didn’t communicate is bullshit.

[walter]

Jun 26, 2019 20:28:36 GMT dave1 said:

Jun 26, 2019 18:26:53 GMT walter said:

Throughout all of his crimes JJD was never one to send any letters to the media demanding attention.  He would not be able to not tie his new crimes to these letters and brag about them.

" Also, at what point would the Zodiac have found these internet sites and started posting. I think you would have guess JJD would never do that."

Posting?  Sure, it's possible.  I never once saw a single post anywhere here that would ever in a million years be equivalent to the GSK acting like the Zodiac.  That would mean there was a post saying 'I am the GSK, I killed ### you will never catch me, etc etc".  That never happened.

" Based on what you are saying I would guess Zodiac couldn't have helped himself but not necessarily JJD. I can see the Zodiac dropping hints about who he is. He couldn't help himself."

JJD never showed any inclination at all on any level to brag.  Especially not to the media.  It's uncertain if he was registered on these boards but, again, nothing like the Zodiac letters ever once appeared here.

All of this is superfluous to the fact that the crimes themselves are RADICALLY different.  Entirely different needs moving two very different people to do what they did.  Not even considering the fact that whatever DNA they have absolutely does not match JJD's.

Really EAR didn’t write any letters to the media? He wrote a letter to the media offering to let them “buy him out” to make him go away and asked them to make a movie about him. What on earth are you talking about?

Phone calls taunting the cops. Sending messages to cops via his victims. Writing letters to media. He wasn’t as prolific communicating as Z was, but he committed WAY more crimes and let the papers do the talking for him. However saying he didn’t communicate is bullshit.

1. That letter was most likely not him and people have let it fall entirely by the wayside.  I mean...  come on.

2. Those things are VERY VERY different from what the Zodiac Killer did.

He did not communicate through the media.  The Zodiac killer would not shut up through the media.  Two INCREDIBLY different people and it's important to be able to understand the distinctions and the methods (also, no need to curse - it's pointless).

[mtf65]

Thank walter for an opinion. Better than most, who don't even consider it at all. I just don't get wrong MO though. He just seems so logical to me. He seems like such a perfect fit. Right age, right car, right sizes and differing appearances. Correct boots, correct hair some of the time, like ear. He is a scuba diver, in the navy, he is a killer and a student of crime, he ties people up with pre cut straps. He murdered in the same differing areas of CA. His homework writing has similar misspellings. Maybe why it was written like a school kid. It would have been a giveaway otherwise. To deny it isn't possible is not logical at all. This doesn't even come close to all the reasons it seems like it could be him.

[dave1]

Jun 26, 2019 21:40:24 GMT walter said:

Jun 26, 2019 20:28:36 GMT dave1 said:

Really EAR didn’t write any letters to the media? He wrote a letter to the media offering to let them “buy him out” to make him go away and asked them to make a movie about him. What on earth are you talking about?

Phone calls taunting the cops. Sending messages to cops via his victims. Writing letters to media. He wasn’t as prolific communicating as Z was, but he committed WAY more crimes and let the papers do the talking for him. However saying he didn’t communicate is bullshit.

1. That letter was most likely not him and people have let it fall entirely by the wayside.  I mean...  come on.

2. Those things are VERY VERY different from what the Zodiac Killer did.

He did not communicate through the media.  The Zodiac killer would not shut up through the media.  Two INCREDIBLY different people and it's important to be able to understand the distinctions and the methods (also, no need to curse - it's pointless).

Now again, I’m not saying JJD is Zodiac. I’m talking hypothetically here.

Let’s say for a moment that it was him, just for the sake of argument.

1965: Graduates High School

1966: Enters Navy

1968: Discharged from Navy in August

December 1968: 1st Zodiac murder.

So JJD would’ve been 23 years old, high school equivalency graduate but no HS diploma. No college. 2 years in Navy. Certainly no kind of police training whatsoever.

If you look at the Zodiac letters, they started to drop off in Frequency pretty considerably around 1971, while JJD was studying Criminal Justice and Police Science at Sac State.

Maybe he figured out that hand writing letters and sending them to the police was a pretty dumb idea and that he shouldn’t do it anymore? It doesn’t need to be more complicated than that.

Again guys, we know this dude switched up his MO. Sac Sheriff’s didn’t think VR could be EAR because there were no rapes in Visalia. SoCal cops didn’t think ONS was EAR bwcauE there were no murders in Sacramento. Why is it all of a sudden different when we’re talking about a guy that shoots at random couples being intimate on a lovers lane?

As far as the Paul Stine murder, just think about it for a second. He got picked up in a random cab and asked to be dropped off near the Presidio. Presidio is a gigantic park on the northernmost tip of San Francisco, which offers direct access to the Golden Gate Bridge and out of the city.

Does that sound like somebody that was super familiar with San Francisco to you? Because it sounds to me like somebody looked at a map and found an easy escape route in a city they didn’t really know.

It seems to me like the Paul Stine murder happened simply because his other murders weren’t scaring San Francisco enough. They were all on the outer reaches of the Bay in the middle of nowhere, so a lot of people in the city didn’t give a *.

Does killing Paul Stine mean he had a desire to kill cab drivers? Men with glasses? Hell, I’m the other 3 attacks he didn’t seem nearly as concerned with the men at all, not nearly as much as he was with women.

Paul Stine’s murder was committed solely to inflict terror on the city of San Francisco, whom Zodiac didn’t think were respecting him properly.

Inflicting terror. Who does that sound like?

[woofytreats]

Jun 26, 2019 22:30:13 GMT mtf65 said:

Thank walter for an opinion. Better than most, who don't even consider it at all. I just don't get wrong MO though. He just seems so logical to me. He seems like such a perfect fit. Right age, right car, right sizes and differing appearances. Correct boots, correct hair some of the time, like ear. He is a scuba diver, in the navy, he is a killer and a student of crime, he ties people up with pre cut straps. He murdered in the same differing areas of CA. His homework writing has similar misspellings. Maybe why it was written like a school kid. It would have been a giveaway otherwise. To deny it isn't possible is not logical at all. This doesn't even come close to all the reasons it seems like it could be him.

I think you might have to "flesh out" your comparisons here too...because I'm probably not the only one who's a bit confused by them...

Unless there's some specifics other than what I'm aware of...right age, right car might be a bit too generic to say with any certainty.

The Zodiac Wing Walker boot prints were size 10 1/2 and the EAR/ONS-DeAngelo footprints were 9-9 1/2. What did DeAngelo weigh in late 1969?? The soil compaction tests at Berryessa ( if I remember right ) indicated someone at least 220 lbs.

Not sure where scuba diving ties in here other than Art Allen was a scuba diver and was in the Navy. Comparing suspect to suspect??

We have no idea if the Danville Papers were procured by DeAngelo, he wrote them, or they have anything to do with the case....let alone assigning similar misspellings to them in relation to Zodiac.

This should definitely be in the Zodiac thread and not here...

[cherylh]

The Presidio wasn't a park back then.

Far from it.

[elir]

Jun 26, 2019 20:26:07 GMT dave1 said:

Jun 26, 2019 10:50:17 GMT elir said:

Would JJD , from what little we know of him, shoot Paul Stine , take part of his bloody shirt and mail it back to boast about the killing,? The guy is a murderer , a rapist, a kidnapper , a shoplifter, and a burglar; despite being all those things he is not the Zodiac. Same general place, similar time period, different maniac.

Let me just start off by saying that nobody is definitively saying that JJD was Zodiac. There’s a big difference between being open to the possibility and getting a conviction in court.

Second of all, whoever the Zodiac was got away with it, end of story. Short of a full confession with proof to back up the killer’s claims, nobody will ever be convicted of any of those murders.

Last but not least, the fact that there have been no definitively good suspects associated with Zodiac in the 50+ years since the crimes started means that all of you going around saying it couldn’t have been XYZ person because of ABC reason has absolutely no idea what on earth you’re talking about. You have no idea who he was or wasn’t, and you shouldn’t be going around talking down to people for having a different opinion from you.

I’ll never understand for the life of me people who go out of their way to so vehemently argue against certain theories in a case that has absolutely nothing to do with you, where you don’t know anything that every other person on earth who’s read about the case doesn’t know.

This is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. You’re saying it couldn’t have been JJD because he wouldn’t have taken Paul Stine’s shirt? How the * could you possibly know that? You don’t, you’re just stating your opinion as fact and using it as a straw man to “prove” your point. You have no idea what kinds of things JJD did or didn’t do. They just officially tied the Ransacker crimes to him a year ago, a full 44 years after those crimes started. We have no idea what this psycho was up to.

If any of you think Claude Snelling was his first murder I think you’re very mistaken.

If any of you think his crime spree started as the Ransacker, or even as the Cordova Cat, you’re very mistaken.

Who’s to say he didn’t lose his mind on a gun boat for 2 years and decided he wanted to start killing people? Do the known Zodiac crimes strike you as being perpetrated by a season veteran who was used to killing people? Because it seems to me like he was an amateur, shooting kids trapped in a car and he doesn’t even kill them all at point blank range with nobody around? Not exactly a green beret.

I think the most telling crime in the Zodiac series, which really gives us insight into who he was and why he did what he did, was the Lake Berryessa attack. That attack is basically a ONS murder, only during the daylight and outdoors. And that’s also the crime you people talk about the least whenever this subject comes up.

No wonder these guys went free for so long. You’ve got a forum full of people that have no interest in the case other than their own curiosity who fight like animals over their little pet theories, imagine what the cops who investigated these crimes were doing back then. It’s a shock they solved anything.

Take your own personal biases out of the equation and look at this from a different perspective. There are a lot of things in common here.

I really don’t have a personal bias . What I know is that the late 60s marked the start of a period when a surge of serial killers emerged , young males born in the immediate aftermath of WWII. A number of those serial killers happened to be in California.

What behaviors did JJD carry through from the VR to EARONS to ONS ? Masturbation, and leaving clear evidence of it . Interest in women’s clothes ( did that carry
over to ONS ? ) Bludgeoning . Violating the home. Anything else?

Did Zodiac masturbate at the assault/kill sites , did he
take any item of clothing from his female victims ?

In my opinion,,while there might be certain surface commonalities , if Zodiac was an incipient GSK, one might expect to see a through-line or core behavioral elements linking the periods as he refined his method.

And as for these comments “No wonder these guys went free for so long. You’ve got a forum full of people that have no interest in the case other than their own curiosity who fight like animals over their little pet theories, imagine what the cops who investigated these crimes were doing back then. It’s a shock they solved anything. “

There is no need for this. I am not a cop, a detective or a judge. It was never my job to investigate these unfortunate humans. If it was your job , then you are to commended for your efforts; if you were directly hurt by one of these people or a loved one was harmed , then I can understand your anger . If you are upset at the injustice of JJD getting to live his life while his victims lives were horribly and permanently interrupted, then I share that feeling. But can we try to agree to disagree and leave it at that?
I’

[dave1]

Jun 26, 2019 23:40:00 GMT cherylh said:

The Presidio wasn't a park back then.

Far from it.

Splitting hairs, you know exactly what I mean. It’s an open area where someone can easily hide.

I’m going to start a new thread in a different forum

[kg]

Jun 26, 2019 22:30:13 GMT mtf65 said:

Thank walter for an opinion. Better than most, who don't even consider it at all. I just don't get wrong MO though. He just seems so logical to me. He seems like such a perfect fit. Right age, right car, right sizes and differing appearances. Correct boots, correct hair some of the time, like ear. He is a scuba diver, in the navy, he is a killer and a student of crime, he ties people up with pre cut straps. He murdered in the same differing areas of CA. His homework writing has similar misspellings. Maybe why it was written like a school kid. It would have been a giveaway otherwise. To deny it isn't possible is not logical at all. This doesn't even come close to all the reasons it seems like it could be him.

I agree, the wrong MO idea doesn’t cut it. I firmly believe the Zodiac killer was a younger offender, not a middle aged man. His crimes were just so juvenile in nature and his communications too. Given that his frontal cortex had not yet fully set up who is to say whether his emotions were not in flux and if his perceptions were stable or changing. An MO will reflect the needs of the psychopath so if his needs were changing and all those other complicating factors were not stable who is say his MO would not change. Plus he was really smart, so the learning variable comes to bear here as well.

[mark]

Mmmh. Anything is possible until disproved, but honestly this theory is a huge reach.
As for the age, JJD is already famous for the baby face he had, now someone mistakes him for a 35-40 years old guy?
Then there’s the composite. Everybody dismisses composites as useless, but sometimes they’re good (the irony of the Visalia sketch). Around that date, if I’m correct, JJD had a thin face, with somewhat big eyes and nose. A quite different look, infact.
This will not disprove anything, but whatever.
As Walter said, the only common thing I see is that they killed people.