Zodiac / JJD / Shoes Speculation

[walter]

Jun 27, 2019 18:44:44 GMT dave1 said:

Jun 27, 2019 17:16:16 GMT walter said:

So - and your mileage may vary on this - I think all of those things are interchangeable/malleable across offenders.  Nor do I think the Zodiac was all that consistent with them.

The parts that can't change for JJD is the sexual aspect and the need to be IN the homes.  That was a driving desire for him - he NEEDED to be in those homes and he wanted people to know he was part of their lives.  He also had a very focused sexual aspect of his crimes.  An offender doesn't just decide that they will get sexually excited sometimes and then decide they will change that at other times.  The crimes are deeply sexual to him.  You could absolutely convince me JJD was figuring out the things like how to bind people and switched on and off from ligatures or that he changed cars (everyone does this) but you CAN'T convince me he just decided he would start having intense sexual components to his crimes and then not for others.  It's kind of the very reason he was committing the crimes and the Zodiac exhibited none of that.

A lot of the reasons you listed apply to a lot of people and just because no one has worked to this point doesn't mean JJD has any role at all in them.  Thousands of others also fit.  I guess I wouldn't say it's absolutely 100% literally impossible - just like 99.99999%.

Plus, I am pretty sure they already excluded him based on dna/print/hand writing/probably locations they have found out he was at.  There is about a ZERO chance they traced his whereabouts (and they know WAY more than we do at this point) and they lined up with SF and no LE put it together.  Zodiac is one of the most famous cases ever - they would have already thought about it.

Again - entirely not trying to bash you - I understand where you are coming from.

I’d say the biggest disagreement I have here is regarding Zodiac and sex. Just because he didn’t rape any women doesn’t mean the crimes had nothing to do with sex.

Technically Zodiac targeted women much more than he targeted men. The only 2 victims that survived were men because he was much more focused on killing the women than he was on killing the men. It’s almost like he was punishing these women for being with the men they were with? I’m not going to act like I understand the mind of a psychopath, but I think there was a pretty strong underlying sexual element to the crimes.

I still would love for somebody who thinks that JJD as Zodiac is absurd to address attack 3 at Lake Berryessa and how that fits in with the other Zodiac attacks. That crime was so incredibly similar to EAR.

That isn't the same kind of obsession at all.  JJD's was very much about sex - with Zodiac who knows and maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.  You have to make some considerable assumptions that aren't very clear at all.  Personally, I think it was all about attention for him - he showed no real overt sexual desire in his crimes.  With the GSK/EARONs you never questioned it.  That difference is significant - one maybe was sexual in a very tangential way - possibly - the other was entirely driven by an intense sexual need and it was very clear.  JJD could not have turned off the basic driving desire for committing the crimes.  He couldn't 'just' kill people and the Zodiac couldn't do, or read, anything without sending some letter to the media.

Also, I disagree he wasn't focused on killing the men - the guys just happened to survive.  He shot them quite often, even coming back to a car when he heard one groan to fire more rounds into him.  He also stabbed another quite a few times - it's just random chance he didn't kill them.

[V]

Jun 27, 2019 18:44:44 GMT dave1 said:

Jun 27, 2019 17:16:16 GMT walter said:

So - and your mileage may vary on this - I think all of those things are interchangeable/malleable across offenders.  Nor do I think the Zodiac was all that consistent with them.

The parts that can't change for JJD is the sexual aspect and the need to be IN the homes.  That was a driving desire for him - he NEEDED to be in those homes and he wanted people to know he was part of their lives.  He also had a very focused sexual aspect of his crimes.  An offender doesn't just decide that they will get sexually excited sometimes and then decide they will change that at other times.  The crimes are deeply sexual to him.  You could absolutely convince me JJD was figuring out the things like how to bind people and switched on and off from ligatures or that he changed cars (everyone does this) but you CAN'T convince me he just decided he would start having intense sexual components to his crimes and then not for others.  It's kind of the very reason he was committing the crimes and the Zodiac exhibited none of that.

A lot of the reasons you listed apply to a lot of people and just because no one has worked to this point doesn't mean JJD has any role at all in them.  Thousands of others also fit.  I guess I wouldn't say it's absolutely 100% literally impossible - just like 99.99999%.

Plus, I am pretty sure they already excluded him based on dna/print/hand writing/probably locations they have found out he was at.  There is about a ZERO chance they traced his whereabouts (and they know WAY more than we do at this point) and they lined up with SF and no LE put it together.  Zodiac is one of the most famous cases ever - they would have already thought about it.

Again - entirely not trying to bash you - I understand where you are coming from.

I’d say the biggest disagreement I have here is regarding Zodiac and sex. Just because he didn’t rape any women doesn’t mean the crimes had nothing to do with sex.

Technically Zodiac targeted women much more than he targeted men. The only 2 victims that survived were men because he was much more focused on killing the women than he was on killing the men. It’s almost like he was punishing these women for being with the men they were with? I’m not going to act like I understand the mind of a psychopath, but I think there was a pretty strong underlying sexual element to the crimes.

I still would love for somebody who thinks that JJD as Zodiac is absurd to address attack 3 at Lake Berryessa and how that fits in with the other Zodiac attacks. That crime was so incredibly similar to EAR.

This reminds me of Son of Sam. No overt sexual motivations to his crimes, yet he clearly was targeting women. Even when he attacked couples the female was the focus. In one of his couples attacks he shot at the man and only hardly wounded the female, but the man had long hair, which makes it obvious to me he mistook him for a female. 

***Carl Denaro, 25, and Rosemary Keenan, 38, were parked in a secluded residential area in Flushing, Queens. Keenan was driving her own Volkswagen Beetle, and Denaro was in the passenger seat. At about 1:30 a.m., the car's windows seemed to explode, and the duo dropped low in their seats as several bullets struck the car. Denaro and Keenan did not realize someone was shooting at them, even as Denaro was bleeding from a bullet wound to his head. They panicked and Keenan drove to Peck's, a bar about half a mile away. Keenan had only superficial injuries from the broken glass, but Denaro eventually needed a metal plate to replace a portion of his skull. Neither victim had seen whoever had made the attack.



Police determined that the slugs embedded in Keenan's car were .44 caliber bullets, but they were so damaged and deformed that they thought it was unlikely that they could ever be linked to a particular weapon. Denaro had shoulder-length hair, and police would later speculate that the shooter had mistaken him for a girl.***

[cherylh]

It's interesting to say that the Lake Berryessa crimes are incredibly similar to the EAR crimes -- when the most notable thing about an EAR crime is lacking from the Lake Berryessa attack.

It's right in the name -- East Area RAPIST.

And as to the Presidio -- it's a very nice public park now. I spend a lot of time there.

But at the time of the Zodiac killings, it wasn't a park. It was a staffed and patrolled Army base. If you entered it, you stood a good chance of being stopped by a sentry and asked for an ID. That's why so many Zodiac researchers suspect that the Zodiac had worked or studied there -- because you had to know the grounds well to get through them without running into sentries or other personnel.

[elir]

As the VR, he exhibited evidence of sexual motivation, with his voyeurism, the focus on women's underwear, and culminating with the attempted kidnapping of Beth Snelling.

During the EAR and ONS attacks, he either raped or masturbated at the scene unless there was evidence of his being confronted as happened at some of the ONS attacks, the Maggiore murders, and Claude Snelling's murder. The two times he shot lone men, Officer McGowen and Rodney Miller, it was to avoid the risk of being captured.

There probably was some sexual motivation for Zodiac to kill couples, but there is no evidence of sexual assault or perversion, unlike in every phase of GSK. And the Zodiac's murder of a lone male, Paul Stine, neither has an obvious sexual component, nor was there any indication that Stine had caught out or confronted Zodiac.

Both JJD and Zodiac covered their faces, but consider JJD leaving a house, post-assault, without pants on, versus the Zodiac wearing his head to toe halloween costume. Neither one wants to be identified and both want to impose terror, but JJD cant control the need to let his freak flag fly on a suburban sidewalk.

Is JJD also the Zodiac? Unless we can pin down JJD's exact locations during the Zodiac series, then it is _possible_, but it does not seem probable that they are one and the same.

[dave1]

Jun 28, 2019 18:37:24 GMT cherylh said:

It's interesting to say that the Lake Berryessa crimes are incredibly similar to the EAR crimes -- when the most notable thing about an EAR crime is lacking from the Lake Berryessa attack.

It's right in the name -- East Area RAPIST.

And as to the Presidio -- it's a very nice public park now. I spend a lot of time there.

But at the time of the Zodiac killings, it wasn't a park. It was a staffed and patrolled Army base. If you entered it, you stood a good chance of being stopped by a sentry and asked for an ID. That's why so many Zodiac researchers suspect that the Zodiac had worked or studied there -- because you had to know the grounds well to get through them without running into sentries or other personnel.

Ok you’ve pointed out the most obvious differences. Berryessa attack was also outside during the day, you forgot that. But you didn’t even bother looking at the striking similarities.

Wore a hood and gloves, with a belt that had a knife and bindings.

Brough pre-ties bindings with him.

Held victims at gunpoint while telling them “I just want your car” “do as I say and I won’t hurt you” “I just need your car to escape to Mexico”.

Tossed the bindings to the woman and made her tie up the man, then he tied the woman and secured bindings on the man.

I believe they even said he held the gun with his left hand, although I could be wrong about that.

How many other serial offenders followed that exact script? How many outside of Northern California?

You think it’s just a coincidence that JJD did that same thing as EAR?

As far as the rap is concerned, his rapes lasted hours, that’s why he did them indoors. He can’t do that at a public lake in the middle of the day, at least not the way EAR did. He kiiinda needed to get out of there quickly.

[dementedavenger]

Jun 28, 2019 20:35:05 GMT dave1 said:

Ok you’ve pointed out the most obvious differences. Berryessa attack was also outside during the day, you forgot that. But you didn’t even bother looking at the striking similarities.

Wore a hood and gloves, with a belt that had a knife and bindings.

Brough pre-ties bindings with him.

Held victims at gunpoint while telling them “I just want your car” “do as I say and I won’t hurt you” “I just need your car to escape to Mexico”.

Tossed the bindings to the woman and made her tie up the man, then he tied the woman and secured bindings on the man.

I believe they even said he held the gun with his left hand, although I could be wrong about that.

How many other serial offenders followed that exact script? How many outside of Northern California?

You think it’s just a coincidence that JJD did that same thing as EAR?

As far as the rap is concerned, his rapes lasted hours, that’s why he did them indoors. He can’t do that at a public lake in the middle of the day, at least not the way EAR did. He kiiinda needed to get out of there quickly.

Zodiac wore a custom hood for one attack, nothing for the others; EAR wore ski masks. That’s a significantly different way of hiding his identity. That hood obviously meant something to the Zodiac, given the obvious work he put into making it; the EAR was using off-the-shelf ski masks that he probably stole.

EAR brought pre-tied bindings. Zodiac did not, as you show two lines later.

Both wore gloves. Big whoop. Neither wanted to leave fingerprints. Is that a unique characteristic? Same thing for utility belts. Those were really common when I was a little kid in the Seventies.

Telling a victim, “Do as I say and I won’t hurt you,” is an obvious way of gaining compliance, as it gives the victim an incentive to cooperate. What do you expect the Zodiac to say? “I’m going to kill you once I’ve tied you up”? To show how dumb that is, when the EAR progressed to trying to psych himself up to kill by saying he was going to kill his victims, they fled.

As for not raping, the Zodiac saw fit to have a couple tied up while wearing a hood, but rape is too much? Really? If anything, having sex would be less out of place to an onlooker, especially as Halloween was still a month away. You could claim it’s aggressive consensual sex, and it sounds like a few cops in this era would have bought it.

[dementedavenger]

Jun 28, 2019 19:52:40 GMT elir said:

Both JJD and Zodiac covered their faces, but consider JJD leaving a house, post-assault, without pants on, versus the Zodiac wearing his head to toe halloween costume. Neither one wants to be identified and both want to impose terror, but JJD cant control the need to let his freak flag fly on a suburban sidewalk.

That both hid their faces is normal. It would be more abnormal for one of them to not disguise himself. It’s how they hid themselves is what matters, and like you said, they could not have been more different between the Halloween costume and the naked member. Indeed, walking out naked makes you wonder if the EAR wanted everyone to see his unit. It seems defiant.

[dave1]

Jun 28, 2019 22:23:36 GMT dementedavenger said:

Jun 28, 2019 20:35:05 GMT dave1 said:

Ok you’ve pointed out the most obvious differences. Berryessa attack was also outside during the day, you forgot that. But you didn’t even bother looking at the striking similarities.

Wore a hood and gloves, with a belt that had a knife and bindings.

Brough pre-ties bindings with him.

Held victims at gunpoint while telling them “I just want your car” “do as I say and I won’t hurt you” “I just need your car to escape to Mexico”.

Tossed the bindings to the woman and made her tie up the man, then he tied the woman and secured bindings on the man.

I believe they even said he held the gun with his left hand, although I could be wrong about that.

How many other serial offenders followed that exact script? How many outside of Northern California?

You think it’s just a coincidence that JJD did that same thing as EAR?

As far as the rap is concerned, his rapes lasted hours, that’s why he did them indoors. He can’t do that at a public lake in the middle of the day, at least not the way EAR did. He kiiinda needed to get out of there quickly.

Zodiac wore a custom hood for one attack, nothing for the others; EAR wore ski masks. That’s a significantly different way of hiding his identity. That hood obviously meant something to the Zodiac, given the obvious work he put into making it; the EAR was using off-the-shelf ski masks that he probably stole.

EAR brought pre-tied bindings. Zodiac did not, as you show two lines later.

Both wore gloves. Big whoop. Neither wanted to leave fingerprints. Is that a unique characteristic? Same thing for utility belts. Those were really common when I was a little kid in the Seventies.

Telling a victim, “Do as I say and I won’t hurt you,” is an obvious way of gaining compliance, as it gives the victim an incentive to cooperate. What do you expect the Zodiac to say? “I’m going to kill you once I’ve tied you up”? To show how dumb that is, when the EAR progressed to trying to psych himself up to kill by saying he was going to kill his victims, they fled.

As for not raping, the Zodiac saw fit to have a couple tied up while wearing a hood, but rape is too much? Really? If anything, having sex would be less out of place to an onlooker, especially as Halloween was still a month away. You could claim it’s aggressive consensual sex, and it sounds like a few cops in this era would have bought it.

A lot of this is incorrect.

First of all, EAR did indeed wear hoods similar to the one Zodiac wore early on in the EAR series. If you read through the case reports of some of the early attacks he was described as wearing a hood, not a ski mask.

Second of all, the elaborate symbols on the Zodiac outfit were on the chest, not on the hood. He could’ve just bought the hood at a store.

EAR may have bought many of the masks he wore (there were 50 rapes and he used a different mask every time, so yeah), but not only did he alter the ski masks by cutting eye and/or mouth holes, but the investigators stated that some of the ski masks he wore were custom made, so there’s a solid chance that he either stole them or made them himself.

Zodiac DID bring pre-tied bindings to Berryessa. He tossed them to the woman to have her secure the man. EAR did the exact same thing.

The remarks by the 2 offenders were not just about telling people he wasn’t going to kill them. Both offenders would make up inane stories like that to confuse their victims, for example Zodiac told the victims that he killed a prison guard escaping from prison in Montana. Why would that information be relevant other than to simply confuse them? Berryessa is obviously a long way from Montana. EAR would tell similar bullshit stories to confuse his victims. That part is pretty unique amongst these offenders.

Again with the non-rape. It was in the middle of the day at a popular public lake. Have you ever been to Lake Berryessa before? Even on the emptiest of days there are usually quite a few people around. In fact there’s a very good chance that at least 4 other people saw Zodiac there that day, both before and after the murders. If you know anything about EAR rapes he was in these homes for HOURS, brutalizing these women repeatedly. How could he possibly have time to do that in the middle of the day in a public place? The whole attack lasted only a few minutes. Had he raped them he almost certainly would’ve been caught.

That attack is the main reason why I want to look at DeAngelo so closely. Put yourself in the killers shoes for a moment, let’s just forget that we know who EAR was. Can’t you see the correlation between a guy who fantasizes about doing what EAR eventually went on to do, but just didn’t know how to go about doing it? Tying his victims up at Berryessa is quite obviously something he put a great deal of thought into. What if the ultimate goal was indeed to rape the woman before killing them both, but he just hadn’t made that (il)logical leap to doing it indoors instead of out in the open.

You have to remember that pulling off a crime like what EAR did is not easy. Breaking into a home period without getting caught is hard (or at least I would imagine it would be). Imagine the leap in difficulty from empty house to occupied house? Imagine the difficulty of breaking into an occupied house and gaining access to a bedroom to watch people sleep without waking them up (Cordova Cat Burglar)? That takes a LOT of practice. That’s not something that you could just wake up one day and start doing for fun.

Now imagine getting away with that dozens of times, over and over again, without being identified, arrested, or killed by someone in the home. Obviously a great deal of luck goes into that, but, gross as it is to say, it also takes a tremendous amount of skill and dedication.

Call me crazy, but I can see the leap in logic from a psycho killer doing what Zodiac did at Berryessa because he has some sick fantasy about raping a woman while she’s intimate with her husband and then killing them both, who then figures out that the ideal way to do that would be to attack people inside their home so nobody sees what you’re doing. Then figuring out that the way to do it is to break in at night and attack while people sleep. Then when he starts working his way into it, it takes on a life of its own.

I think too many of you are looking at the end of each series and you’re not thinking about the motivations of the killers and why they do what they do. I disagree with the people who think Zodiac was a fat angry army reject nerd who killed kids for fun. I think he was a psycho kid himself who read a lot of books and magazines and wanted to be a super villain. He probably sucked with girls and resented them because of that, so he wanted to punish them. He started out just killing them, probably liked it and realized it was pretty easy, and then decided that he wanted more.

[dave1]

Jun 29, 2019 0:12:29 GMT @bribri said:

He returned from Vietnam on June 1st 1967. I think 1968 is when the 23 year old Deangelo met Bonnie and was in school with her and courting her (as well as being involved with his friends/adoptive family near Sierra college near Sacramento). In 1970 they were engaged. In Spring of 1971 they broke up and days later he was "holding hands with an unfamiliar girl" www.latimes.com/projects/man-in-the-window-joe-DeAngelo-golden-state-killer-serial/

Zodiac has his first confirmed killings in December 20, 1968 in Benicia, then more on July 4 1969 (Vallejo), then on Sept 27 1969 (Lake Berryessa), and then on Oct. 1969 (presido heights, near San Francisco). These are the confirmed killings according to the wiki on the Zodiac ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer ). I'm no expert. I am sure real Zodiac investigators think the wiki is weak.

It just seems to me that he was kind of in the Sacramento community, doing school and being with Bonnie and with his friends/adoptive family during the period.

I can't understand why he would travel south, at 23 years old as Zodiac, and don a mask to kill random innocents so close to Christmas? In my relationships with family and girlfriends, at that age, I don't think I could get away with not being around; especially so close to Christmas. I guess today it only takes some 2 hours to get to Benicia from Sierra College. So that's like 4 hours of travel in 1968/69. Then to find someone to kill--you might be looking at up to eight hours.

The answers I guess are with Bonnie. Does she remember Joe going away during the 1968/1969 for any kind of road trips where she wasn't involved?

He commuted to the same area from Auburn repeatedly in 1978 and 1979 as EAR. went as far as San Jose which is a good 3 hour+ drive from Auburn. He also was offending as far south as Modesto. We know commuting wasn’t a problem for JJD.

Edit: Also I believe JJD got out of the Navy officially in August 1968.

[dave1]

Jun 29, 2019 0:36:27 GMT @bribri said:

Jun 29, 2019 0:23:35 GMT dave1 said:

He commuted to the same area from Auburn repeatedly in 1978 and 1979 as EAR. went as far as San Jose which is a good 3 hour+ drive from Auburn. He also was offending as far south as Modesto. We know commuting wasn’t a problem for JJD.

True. But, I just think a 19 year old female college student would be uber interested in what her man was doing (just based on what I remember my life being like at 19-25). Like I said, Bonnie is the answer to this recent thread turn.

When did his relationship with Bonnie start?

Also I can see this as being something somebody in a relationship could get away with. He wasn’t out prowling every night like EAR. Zodiac had 4 confirmed attacks over a period of 9-10 months.

[dementedavenger]

Jun 28, 2019 23:50:50 GMT dave1 said:

Jun 28, 2019 22:23:36 GMT dementedavenger said:

Zodiac wore a custom hood for one attack, nothing for the others; EAR wore ski masks. That’s a significantly different way of hiding his identity. That hood obviously meant something to the Zodiac, given the obvious work he put into making it; the EAR was using off-the-shelf ski masks that he probably stole.

EAR brought pre-tied bindings. Zodiac did not, as you show two lines later.

Both wore gloves. Big whoop. Neither wanted to leave fingerprints. Is that a unique characteristic? Same thing for utility belts. Those were really common when I was a little kid in the Seventies.

Telling a victim, “Do as I say and I won’t hurt you,” is an obvious way of gaining compliance, as it gives the victim an incentive to cooperate. What do you expect the Zodiac to say? “I’m going to kill you once I’ve tied you up”? To show how dumb that is, when the EAR progressed to trying to psych himself up to kill by saying he was going to kill his victims, they fled.

As for not raping, the Zodiac saw fit to have a couple tied up while wearing a hood, but rape is too much? Really? If anything, having sex would be less out of place to an onlooker, especially as Halloween was still a month away. You could claim it’s aggressive consensual sex, and it sounds like a few cops in this era would have bought it.

A lot of this is incorrect.

First of all, EAR did indeed wear hoods similar to the one Zodiac wore early on in the EAR series. If you read through the case reports of some of the early attacks he was described as wearing a hood, not a ski mask.

Second of all, the elaborate symbols on the Zodiac outfit were on the chest, not on the hood. He could’ve just bought the hood at a store.

EAR may have bought many of the masks he wore (there were 50 rapes and he used a different mask every time, so yeah), but not only did he alter the ski masks by cutting eye and/or mouth holes, but the investigators stated that some of the ski masks he wore were custom made, so there’s a solid chance that he either stole them or made them himself.

Zodiac DID bring pre-tied bindings to Berryessa. He tossed them to the woman to have her secure the man. EAR did the exact same thing.

The remarks by the 2 offenders were not just about telling people he wasn’t going to kill them. Both offenders would make up inane stories like that to confuse their victims, for example Zodiac told the victims that he killed a prison guard escaping from prison in Montana. Why would that information be relevant other than to simply confuse them? Berryessa is obviously a long way from Montana. EAR would tell similar bullshit stories to confuse his victims. That part is pretty unique amongst these offenders.

Again with the non-rape. It was in the middle of the day at a popular public lake. Have you ever been to Lake Berryessa before? Even on the emptiest of days there are usually quite a few people around. In fact there’s a very good chance that at least 4 other people saw Zodiac there that day, both before and after the murders. If you know anything about EAR rapes he was in these homes for HOURS, brutalizing these women repeatedly. How could he possibly have time to do that in the middle of the day in a public place? The whole attack lasted only a few minutes. Had he raped them he almost certainly would’ve been caught.

That attack is the main reason why I want to look at DeAngelo so closely. Put yourself in the killers shoes for a moment, let’s just forget that we know who EAR was. Can’t you see the correlation between a guy who fantasizes about doing what EAR eventually went on to do, but just didn’t know how to go about doing it? Tying his victims up at Berryessa is quite obviously something he put a great deal of thought into. What if the ultimate goal was indeed to rape the woman before killing them both, but he just hadn’t made that (il)logical leap to doing it indoors instead of out in the open.

You have to remember that pulling off a crime like what EAR did is not easy. Breaking into a home period without getting caught is hard (or at least I would imagine it would be). Imagine the leap in difficulty from empty house to occupied house? Imagine the difficulty of breaking into an occupied house and gaining access to a bedroom to watch people sleep without waking them up (Cordova Cat Burglar)? That takes a LOT of practice. That’s not something that you could just wake up one day and start doing for fun.

Now imagine getting away with that dozens of times, over and over again, without being identified, arrested, or killed by someone in the home. Obviously a great deal of luck goes into that, but, gross as it is to say, it also takes a tremendous amount of skill and dedication.

Call me crazy, but I can see the leap in logic from a psycho killer doing what Zodiac did at Berryessa because he has some sick fantasy about raping a woman while she’s intimate with her husband and then killing them both, who then figures out that the ideal way to do that would be to attack people inside their home so nobody sees what you’re doing. Then figuring out that the way to do it is to break in at night and attack while people sleep. Then when he starts working his way into it, it takes on a life of its own.

I think too many of you are looking at the end of each series and you’re not thinking about the motivations of the killers and why they do what they do. I disagree with the people who think Zodiac was a fat angry army reject nerd who killed kids for fun. I think he was a psycho kid himself who read a lot of books and magazines and wanted to be a super villain. He probably sucked with girls and resented them because of that, so he wanted to punish them. He started out just killing them, probably liked it and realized it was pretty easy, and then decided that he wanted more.

Actually, everything I wrote was utterly correct.

1) At NO point did the EAR wear a hood akin to the Zodiac. Never. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. The Zodiac hood was boxy, almost like he made it on the outside of a grocery sack, which for all we know he might have done.

2) The elaborate symbol was part of the hood, which hung down over his chest like a bib. For clarity on these two points, from page four of the police interview with Bryan Hartnell: "And this mask he had on. It was ingeniously devised. It was … he had four corners at the top, like the top go a paper sack … black. It came down, came down, with the front panel about to here, and a kind of thing that came over the shoulders, you know, and then the same thing down the back, straight down. And in the front he had a circle with a symmetrical cross in the middle." No victim saw anything remotely close to this on the EAR.

3) Page three of the police interview with Bryan Hartnell: "And he said, he told the girl, 'Go tie him up. I'd feel much better if you were tied up.' And she tied a couple of loose knots on me, so I made it look kind of tight … So I let her time me up on the wrists again, and he tied her up—terribly tight …" These are not pre-tied bindings.

4) I don't know from where you're getting that the EAR sewed his mask. The FBI carted out a couple and said they were like those and one of those clearly had some custom work, but not that those were the masks. The victim in attack #8 said the mask was like a man's woolen sock with eyes cut out; even if it was, cut-out eyes are a far cry from sewing your own hood square with a custom symbol on them. Once or twice he may have used a nylon stocking as well.

5) Telling BS stories is hardly unique to either offender. They're criminals; this is not a kind of person who is honest. And indeed, the EAR told nothing like the Deer Lodge Prison tale, which is almost assuredly a telling slip-up by the killer since Deer Lodge, Montana, is a two-hour drive from Malmstrom Air Force Base (his shoes likewise were military surplus, most likely Air Force as well).

The Zodiac hood is such a basic and unique fact of the case that I'm surprised that you're here arguing that the EAR used a similar hood. He didn't. Nobody else did. Again, this hood was incredibly important to the Zodiac for reasons we cannot fathom. Since he planned on killing his victims, this hood was for him, them, and nobody else.

Three other notes from the Hartnell interview, which don't sound like the EAR at all but could be easily disguised: 1) Hartnell described the Zodiac's voice as unique, almost sing-song. The EAR spoke through gritted teeth, though obviously to disguise his voice. 2) The Zodiac didn't swear while talking to them; the EAR swore constantly. 3) Most interesting is that Hartnell described the Zodiac's attire, other than the weird hood, as lower-class. The EAR struck almost exclusively middle-/upper middle-class targets, and almost assuredly did not stand out in their neighborhoods while scouting them. This is also the social class of the accused Joseph DeAngelo.

[Ranger71]

The body weights of each are different at that time also. Zodiac is described as being over 200 lbs, while a JJD out of the military was still slender at likely 160-175 tops.

[ElfinEars]

At this point in my life I wouldn't be surprised to be 'surprised' if you know what I mean but this JJD=/isn't Zodiac needs to make like Will Smith and "Go straight to the WILD,WILD WEST(forum)".

It's cluttering up a legit section of the board .
We have had no pubically made evidence he was the VR or the CCB yet it's now "canon"and y'all wanna bring the goddamn ZODIAC in??


MODS: Can this PLEASE get moved?

POSTERS: Can you please shift this discussion to the appropriate section of the board? I do "like" all of your posts and appreciate them as I love a lively chat but it's off topic here at this point ok?

[walter]

Elfin makes a great point. The Wild West is the perfect spot for this thread at this point. They already have a zodiac thread and half the posts here would fit right in.

[mtf65]

www.zodiackillersite.com/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1969

Ed Salmina, Sports Editor, who got possible Zodiac threat. From Novato. Same age as JJD. Died at 50. Baseball guy. Wasn't JJDs dad stationed in Navato when JJD was about 13 or 14? Small world. What are the chances? If JJD isn't the Zodiac it will be amazing.