10-1-79

[zforce]

I didn’t see a 40th anniversary thread for EAR/ONS first known SoCal attack, otherwise known as the botched Goleta attack.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted so I thought I’d share some random thoughts about this era and the crimes that followed.

It’s been almost a year and a half since JJD’s arrest, and interestingly nobody has publicly been able to place him in Goleta during the crimes there. If LE has this info they will most certainly be tight lipped until trial, but given all of the investigative resources available to amateurs it makes me wonder if these were passing through type crimes, this making it harder to track JJD’s movements. All of the crimes took place along the creek bed and my general feeling is that he was staying immediately in the vicinity, as after the botched attempt he fled away from the creek as opposed to using it in his escape. IMO the Goleta victims were all a matter of convenience based on proximity to the creek bed, however we still don’t know for certain that he initially intended to kill anyone in the first two attacks and O/M may have forced his hand in fighting back.

We know for certain he intended to kill the Smiths in Ventura in March of 1980 and all of the victims that subsequently followed. The Smiths lived in an atypical neighborhood versus the other crimes — a lot of elevated open terrain. There has been much speculation over what possibly led him to the Smiths, but the crime scene suggested to LE a personal attack and that’s the way it was investigated until the DNA matching the other crimes. Due to Lyman and JJD’s Citrus Heights ties it’s hard to rule out a personal motive even now. Was there possibly a legal connection between Lyman and JJD’s wife?

We know this was the era he started having a family of his own so it’s easy to explain why he slowed his crime spree, but the current theory I’m operating under is that it was actually the stalking that got him aroused. I think during this era up until his arrest he never stopped this component. He would have had thousands of opportunities to kill, so we can’t rule out personal connections or perceived slights as motivating factors to kill in the few instances where he did.

In many ways JJD’s arrest has only furthered to open the door to other mysteries of the case, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any answers unless a deal is struck.

[saund10295]

Oct 2, 2019 4:46:51 GMT zforce said:

I didn’t see a 40th anniversary thread for EAR/ONS first known SoCal attack, otherwise known as the botched Goleta attack.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted so I thought I’d share some random thoughts about this era and the crimes that followed.

It’s been almost a year and a half since JJD’s arrest, and interestingly nobody has publicly been able to place him in Goleta during the crimes there. If LE has this info they will most certainly be tight lipped until trial, but given all of the investigative resources available to amateurs it makes me wonder if these were passing through type crimes, this making it harder to track JJD’s movements. All of the crimes took place along the creek bed and my general feeling is that he was staying immediately in the vicinity, as after the botched attempt he fled away from the creek as opposed to using it in his escape. IMO the Goleta victims were all a matter of convenience based on proximity to the creek bed, however we still don’t know for certain that he initially intended to kill anyone in the first two attacks and O/M may have forced his hand in fighting back.

We know for certain he intended to kill the Smiths in Ventura in March of 1980 and all of the victims that subsequently followed. The Smiths lived in an atypical neighborhood versus the other crimes — a lot of elevated open terrain. There has been much speculation over what possibly led him to the Smiths, but the crime scene suggested to LE a personal attack and that’s the way it was investigated until the DNA matching the other crimes. Due to Lyman and JJD’s Citrus Heights ties it’s hard to rule out a personal motive even now. Was there possibly a legal connection between Lyman and JJD’s wife?

We know this was the era he started having a family of his own so it’s easy to explain why he slowed his crime spree, but the current theory I’m operating under is that it was actually the stalking that got him aroused. I think during this era up until his arrest he never stopped this component. He would have had thousands of opportunities to kill, so we can’t rule out personal connections or perceived slights as motivating factors to kill in the few instances where he did.

In many ways JJD’s arrest has only furthered to open the door to other mysteries of the case, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any answers unless a deal is struck.

zforce, the answer to your question is already in evidence. The Punishment Map likely depicts Diablo West. Where was the actual final EAR assault in July of '79? Diablo West. What geographics do Diablo West and Goleta share? A creek. What creek feature did the Goleta assaults appear to funnel towards? The 101 underpass. Where did the map slash to? The 680 underpass. Where do 101 and 680 lead? Sacramento. The underpasses isolated and separated DeAngelo's vehicle from the crimes. The more on-edge Goleta became, the tighter DeAngelo's tether was to the underpass, like an escape hatch. I think prowling when the neighborhood was on high alert worried him.      

www.imgur.com/P01LyF7

www.imgur.com/18j13Ky

[johnnyhands1]

Oct 2, 2019 4:46:51 GMT zforce said:

I didn’t see a 40th anniversary thread for EAR/ONS first known SoCal attack, otherwise known as the botched Goleta attack.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted so I thought I’d share some random thoughts about this era and the crimes that followed.

It’s been almost a year and a half since JJD’s arrest, and interestingly nobody has publicly been able to place him in Goleta during the crimes there. If LE has this info they will most certainly be tight lipped until trial, but given all of the investigative resources available to amateurs it makes me wonder if these were passing through type crimes, this making it harder to track JJD’s movements. All of the crimes took place along the creek bed and my general feeling is that he was staying immediately in the vicinity, as after the botched attempt he fled away from the creek as opposed to using it in his escape. IMO the Goleta victims were all a matter of convenience based on proximity to the creek bed, however we still don’t know for certain that he initially intended to kill anyone in the first two attacks and O/M may have forced his hand in fighting back.

We know for certain he intended to kill the Smiths in Ventura in March of 1980 and all of the victims that subsequently followed. The Smiths lived in an atypical neighborhood versus the other crimes — a lot of elevated open terrain. There has been much speculation over what possibly led him to the Smiths, but the crime scene suggested to LE a personal attack and that’s the way it was investigated until the DNA matching the other crimes. Due to Lyman and JJD’s Citrus Heights ties it’s hard to rule out a personal motive even now. Was there possibly a legal connection between Lyman and JJD’s wife?

We know this was the era he started having a family of his own so it’s easy to explain why he slowed his crime spree, but the current theory I’m operating under is that it was actually the stalking that got him aroused. I think during this era up until his arrest he never stopped this component. He would have had thousands of opportunities to kill, so we can’t rule out personal connections or perceived slights as motivating factors to kill in the few instances where he did.

In many ways JJD’s arrest has only furthered to open the door to other mysteries of the case, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any answers unless a deal is struck.

Are you considering the Goleta woman, Julia Jacob, who, along with her mother, saw a strange man with a German shepherd dog in area behind her house - the evening of Domingo-Sanchez in that same neighborhood?  I don't know if the mother is still with us, but you can hear Julia's first-hand account on "The Man in The Window" Ep. 4, "Someone Else's Problem" - it starts pretty close to the beginning of the podcast:

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/man-in-the-window-the-golden-state-killer/id1465334342 

She describes the man as having brown hair and big calves - though it was nighttime.  She's also says that it was a tight knit community where everyone knew everyone, but her and her mother didn't recognize the man she saw (she later says she had a crush on scapegoat suspect Brett Glasby at the time, so it definitely wasn't him with the dog.)

I'm not sure she's a valuable witness, but I would hope investigators have at least talked to her.  If they could somehow link Deangelo with a German shephard in that time period, her testimony might carry more weight.  EDIT: what might make her testimony somewhat valuable would be a record of her - and her mother - in 1981,  giving a description of the man they saw, if it squared with possibly being Deangelo.

[dougguard]

Sorry to disagree. I am sticking with a shopping center connection as the initial point of prey. Do not forget Carmichael victims had all (some) frequented the same store. Detectives in Sacramento speculated then as nothing more than coincidence. Sure, the Harrington’s had just shopped and the groceries were not out of the bag when they were found. In the final analysis, he easily could have used Highways 101 and 1 for all his SoCal crimes. In 79, his wife was just starting her second year of her four year night school program. He was a couple years off of being a parent. He had just gotten fired and needed the work. As I have stated before, either a route driver for the grocery chain or some type of HVAC work. Even without the direct connection, the store was an ideal location to spot and follow victims as juxtaposed to prowling neighborhoods and the risk that this involved. The Four Orange County victims all lived and most likely frequented the like type of retail stores. No doubt he lived somewhere in SoCal but this considered to be in the mid to late eighties. Time will tell? Opinions please!

[zforce]

Oct 2, 2019 6:44:17 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Oct 2, 2019 4:46:51 GMT zforce said:

I didn’t see a 40th anniversary thread for EAR/ONS first known SoCal attack, otherwise known as the botched Goleta attack.

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted so I thought I’d share some random thoughts about this era and the crimes that followed.

It’s been almost a year and a half since JJD’s arrest, and interestingly nobody has publicly been able to place him in Goleta during the crimes there. If LE has this info they will most certainly be tight lipped until trial, but given all of the investigative resources available to amateurs it makes me wonder if these were passing through type crimes, this making it harder to track JJD’s movements. All of the crimes took place along the creek bed and my general feeling is that he was staying immediately in the vicinity, as after the botched attempt he fled away from the creek as opposed to using it in his escape. IMO the Goleta victims were all a matter of convenience based on proximity to the creek bed, however we still don’t know for certain that he initially intended to kill anyone in the first two attacks and O/M may have forced his hand in fighting back.

We know for certain he intended to kill the Smiths in Ventura in March of 1980 and all of the victims that subsequently followed. The Smiths lived in an atypical neighborhood versus the other crimes — a lot of elevated open terrain. There has been much speculation over what possibly led him to the Smiths, but the crime scene suggested to LE a personal attack and that’s the way it was investigated until the DNA matching the other crimes. Due to Lyman and JJD’s Citrus Heights ties it’s hard to rule out a personal motive even now. Was there possibly a legal connection between Lyman and JJD’s wife?

We know this was the era he started having a family of his own so it’s easy to explain why he slowed his crime spree, but the current theory I’m operating under is that it was actually the stalking that got him aroused. I think during this era up until his arrest he never stopped this component. He would have had thousands of opportunities to kill, so we can’t rule out personal connections or perceived slights as motivating factors to kill in the few instances where he did.

In many ways JJD’s arrest has only furthered to open the door to other mysteries of the case, and unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get any answers unless a deal is struck.

Are you considering the Goleta woman, Julia Jacob, who, along with her mother, saw a strange man with a German shepherd dog in area behind her house - the evening of Domingo-Sanchez in that same neighborhood?  I don't know if the mother is still with us, but you can hear Julia's first-hand account on "The Man in The Window" Ep. 4, "Someone Else's Problem" - it starts pretty close to the beginning of the podcast:

podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/man-in-the-window-the-golden-state-killer/id1465334342 

She describes the man as having brown hair and big calves - though it was nighttime.  She's also says that it was a tight knit community where everyone knew everyone, but her and her mother didn't recognize the man she saw (she later says she had a crush on scapegoat suspect Brett Glasby at the time, so it definitely wasn't him with the dog.)

I'm not sure she's a valuable witness, but I would hope investigators have at least talked to her.  If they could somehow link Deangelo with a German shephard in that time period, her testimony might carry more weight.  EDIT: what might make her testimony somewhat valuable would be a record of her - and her mother - in 1981,  giving a description of the man they saw, if it squared with possibly being Deangelo.

That story originated from the police reports so she was most likely the source and thus spoke with LE.

The dog component definitely allowed him to blend in to the neighborhood. While a neighbor may not recognize him a passing police officer would just see a guy out walking his dog.

As we’ve previously discussed, the dog only shows up in Goleta at crimes 18 months apart so it makes me wonder if it was somebody else’s dog and if he was staying with friends/family when in town. I have to believe that LE would have made that connection by now if it exists.

[Red909XMZ1]

I wonder if JJD ever worked with a K-9 unit as an officer, or ever owned a retired police dog. Does anyone here know?

[saund10295]

here's a 1978 aerial image of Goleta obtained from the USCB website. the first block visible is Queen Ann, then you'll see Av. Pequenita, an open field, Toltec, then US 101. There's even much more, that connects the Punishment Map to Goleta. That 101 underpass is a home run due to it's prominence when viewing aerial images. It shows how DeAngelo may have been able to find these spots. By Fall of 1979, rather than a preferred victim, this guy had a preferred hunting grounds. As far as  I know, apart from that favorable terrain, there is no other connection to Goleta and likely never will be.

www.imgur.com/18j13Ky

[Red909XMZ1]

I would think JJD would want to know absolutely everything about the K-9 unit, especially the olfactory abilities of the canines that were currently on staff, and what would be the best way to both attract and deter them during his criminal activities.

I could see him diabolically plotting the surreptitious use of a variety of red herrings that the K-9 units would bedazzlingly follow - leading the canines astray - and in hot pursuit of false evidence.

The punishment map and homework papers may of fell under this category.

I strongly speculate that once the truth is finally revealed, many will be absolutely shocked to discover how truly methodical, calculating, diabolical, and brilliant JJD really is.

[paulienyc84]

For those that are unaware of this, the ID 4-part documentary "Golden State Killer: It's Not Over" is available to stream on the ID Go app. I just watched part 3 and 4 yesterday, unaware that it was the 40th anniversary of the first botched attack. I don't remember his name but the detective that they interviewed in Goleta suggested that JJD might have planned for the botches to happen. Ar first, I thought the detective couldn't have been more wrong. But, after thinking about it, I believe it's possible.

With the first botched attack, the thing that always perplexed me was that JJD kept saying over and over again "I'll kill 'em." Wouldn't an intruder specifically not say anything like that so the victims would think it was just an ordinary burglary and comply with his demands? Saying that he is going to kill them, in my opinion, is only going to make the victims aware that their lives are in danger and encourage them to physically fight back. I honestly don't think he needed to psych himself up to kill. Assuming he killed the Maggiore's and Claude Snelling and attempted to shoot and kill Detective McGowen and Rodney Miller, JJD put himself in situations where he would have to kill to preserve his identity. If he wasn't comfortable killing he wouldn't put himself in situations where he might have to. But, let's just assume that he was uncomfortable killing unless the victims showed some form of resistance. That's where what the Goleta detective in the documentary clicked with me. Is it possible that he wanted the first botched couple and O/M to resist so he could kill them? In the EAR series, he tied the bindings so tight that the victims lost the feelings in their hands and their hands actually turned black from the lack of circulation. Being that he had done this dozens of times before in Northern California and no one that was tied up actually got free and escaped, what are the odds that his victims in the first two consecutive Goleta attacks both break free of their bindings? Did he plan for the botches to happen?

O/M - does anyone know if Dr. Offerman's phone lines were cut? JJD cut them in the EAR series so he would have time to escape without the victims calling the police while he was still in the area. If Dr. Offerman's phone lines weren't cut, that tells me that JJD entered the home that night with the intention of killing O/M. One more thing, Dr. Manning didn't live with Dr. Offerman but decided to spend the night at his home. If JJD was stalking them for some time, how did he know that Dr. Manning was staying over that night? Dr. Offerman's condo is the same type of house he invaded in terms of layout and surrounding areas. Was JJD stalking them for some time and he waited until Dr. Manning stayed at Dr. Offerman's house before he attacked?

I have my theories about how this ties into the D/S murders but I wrote a lot tonight so I didn't want to overwhelm everyone anymore than I actually did lol

[zforce]

One more thought. While in Goleta JJD was appealing his termination in the shoplifting case and lost. If he wasn’t able to let that job go so easily it’s one more aspect that leads me to believe work wasn’t why he was there.

[zforce]

Oct 3, 2019 7:09:44 GMT paulienyc84 said:

For those that are unaware of this, the ID 4-part documentary "Golden State Killer: It's Not Over" is available to stream on the ID Go app. I just watched part 3 and 4 yesterday, unaware that it was the 40th anniversary of the first botched attack. I don't remember his name but the detective that they interviewed in Goleta suggested that JJD might have planned for the botches to happen. Ar first, I thought the detective couldn't have been more wrong. But, after thinking about it, I believe it's possible.

With the first botched attack, the thing that always perplexed me was that JJD kept saying over and over again "I'll kill 'em." Wouldn't an intruder specifically not say anything like that so the victims would think it was just an ordinary burglary and comply with his demands? Saying that he is going to kill them, in my opinion, is only going to make the victims aware that their lives are in danger and encourage them to physically fight back. I honestly don't think he needed to psych himself up to kill. Assuming he killed the Maggiore's and Claude Snelling and attempted to shoot and kill Detective McGowen and Rodney Miller, JJD put himself in situations where he would have to kill to preserve his identity. If he wasn't comfortable killing he wouldn't put himself in situations where he might have to. But, let's just assume that he was uncomfortable killing unless the victims showed some form of resistance. That's where what the Goleta detective in the documentary clicked with me. Is it possible that he wanted the first botched couple and O/M to resist so he could kill them? In the EAR series, he tied the bindings so tight that the victims lost the feelings in their hands and their hands actually turned black from the lack of circulation. Being that he had done this dozens of times before in Northern California and no one that was tied up actually got free and escaped, what are the odds that his victims in the first two consecutive Goleta attacks both break free of their bindings? Did he plan for the botches to happen?

O/M - does anyone know if Dr. Offerman's phone lines were cut? JJD cut them in the EAR series so he would have time to escape without the victims calling the police while he was still in the area. If Dr. Offerman's phone lines weren't cut, that tells me that JJD entered the home that night with the intention of killing O/M. One more thing, Dr. Manning didn't live with Dr. Offerman but decided to spend the night at his home. If JJD was stalking them for some time, how did he know that Dr. Manning was staying over that night? Dr. Offerman's condo is the same type of house he invaded in terms of layout and surrounding areas. Was JJD stalking them for some time and he waited until Dr. Manning stayed at Dr. Offerman's house before he attacked?

I have my theories about how this ties into the D/S murders but I wrote a lot tonight so I didn't want to overwhelm everyone anymore than I actually did lol

It’s an interesting thought, however the Smiths, Harringtons, and Witthuhn gave him no apparent resistance so I’m less inclined to believe he operated like that. It is interesting to note that he loses control of the scene only in all three of the Goleta attacks during his ONS phase though.

While we don’t know how often Manning stayed in Goleta, with O/M there were the several burglaries that evening including the neighbor who had his bike stolen. Also Offerman made a late night trip to his ex wife’s house to drop something off for his son. It isn’t clear where Manning was during this time period but a neighbor heard Offerman return and speak to a female — largely believed to be Manning — and also an unknown male. This third person never came forward during the investigation to report having spoken to the couple that night, which leads me to believe they may have disrupted their eventual killer while he was prowling.

[saund10295]

DeAngelo loses his job and is triggered to begin a murder spree. he doesn't miraculously (3 weeks later) happen to find a new job in what becomes an ideal hunting ground. first, he finds the hunting ground. BTW he would have had some severance pay. if you're looking for a connection, his sister purchased property in San Jose while he was offending in Contra Costa.

[Red909XMZ1]

Hey Paulie,

Fantastic post!

I have always wondered, like you, if JJD purposely botched that attack. It makes no sense whatsoever, does it?

Considering how much JJD seemed to seek and thrive on notoriety and fame, he may of purposely stated, "I'll kill em" over and over again so it would be reported in the newspapers, radio, and television.

I theorize that being in the newspapers, radio, television, and being the hot topic of the community in Sacramento for such a long time was something he really missed as a serial predator.

He likely wanted to make a new name for himself in Goleta and Southern California, and this botched attack and scary statement to the victims would - in his sick mind - accomplish this goal.

I also believe, like you, there is a very distinct possibility that JJD did want the victims to resist so he could justify in his twisted, sick mind, murdering them. This monster really is a tremendous piece of work - and that's an incredible understatement.

[johnnyhands1]

Oct 3, 2019 4:05:36 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

I wonder if JJD ever worked with a K-9 unit as an officer, or ever owned a retired police dog. Does anyone here know?

His Exeter PD colleague Ferral Ward has said he (Ward) was the canine officer who had been asked to join with the dog in assisting Visalia PD to hunt for the VR.  He didn't say how many times.  

Anyway, perhaps JJD (and other officers) could have been a back up for Ward (purely speculation), or just picked up some pointers from Ward without being formally assigned (as you've already mentioned, you'd think he'd be really interested in knowing about the canine unit.)

In the interviews with Ward I've heard, he's never been asked about the nuts and bolts of how the canine was used - and by whom - and if he remembers Deangelo being interested in the dog, other than he (Ward) and the dog were borrowed by VPD for VR hunts.

A question I've asked here before: could Deangelo have been worried that dog would recognize the VR scent on him, say the day after a VR hunt, when they were both at the Exeter PD station? I'm thinking the dog might have started barking at JJD, but I don't know enough about canine training and scent memory to have a clue.

[kg]

Excellent questions johnnyhands1, I would have to suspect that JJD in proximity with the canine used in the tracking of the VR would be problematic for JJD if he was the true VR and not just a VR associate.