Framed by the Golden State Killer?

[Deleted]

Nov 8, 2019 15:20:37 GMT @wonkybob said:

Nov 8, 2019 14:54:44 GMT Brad said:

I almost never do this, and I know that sometimes dealing with "groupthink" can be tedious, but this and subsequent Red posts are dead on. 

Oscar Clifton was convicted in a in a court of law. Was he wrongly convicted? None of us know. Literally, none of us. Oscar would know the truth, and he is dead. So is poor Donna Jo. To the best of everyone's knowledge, there were no eyewitnesses to the actual murder. So the only people who know whether Oscar was properly convicted in court are gone. 

But due process brought a conviction in court. There was enough evidence (which Red outlined above) to convince a jury. That is documented, proven, founded fact. 

The argument that Oscar might have actually been innocent can be made reasonably by anyone looking at those facts. This next part is important. 

Hypothetically, if Oscar was wrongly convicted, it does not mean that JJD was guilty. If they were to vacate Oscar's conviction tomorrow, it does not mean that they would (or could) indict JJD on charges of her murder. There were murders (including of young girls) in east Sacramento in the '90s and early 2000s, right near where JJD lived. It does not mean that he did them. There were rapes and murders all through Southern California during the period of '80-'90. It does not mean that JJD did them. He has lived in and been lots of places where crimes took place, it does not mean that he did them. Proximity does not make a connection, and I do not see where applying this type of confirmation bias helps make a real connection. 

Proof and facts? Oscar was convicted in court by his peers. While he was still alive, you could legally and publicly call Oscar a murderer and have no fear of slander or libel lawsuits. Innocent people have been convicted before, and perhaps he was, but the conviction is a fact that stands certainly more solidly than conjecture about who might have lived nearby. 

Well. I liked your post. It was well thought out. But how can you say "none of us know", but still say that Red is "dead on", when Red is so adamant that she does know. She has wavered and wobbled on her opinion of this matter multiple times. She has been adamant that Clifton didn't do it. Then later adamant that he did do it. I don't think she is dead on about anything other than a pretty sport use of emojis.

earonsgsk.proboards.com/post/232989

[Red909XMZ1]

The prolificacy of sock puppets in this thread is really evident and abundantly transparent.

How one individual can create so many accounts, and brag about it publicly on other forums, is really quite disturbing and pathetic.

Individuals who do this are mentally ill, and are attempting to create drama and chaos within the forum community.

I wish there was a way the forum could eliminate this, because it really detracts from the discourse, and then posters do not feel they can freely and safely discuss important issues regarding cases.

Regarding my change in theory of Clifton's innocence to Clifton's guilt, it is due to my further reading of court opinions and summaries, additional research I conducted, my open-minded nature, and having the ability to freely admit when I am wrong. To be chastised and ridiculed for this by a sock puppet is absolutely ludicrous.

I realize we are on a public forum, and we will have our share of severely mentally ill posters. But, sometimes, it really feels like I am in an insane asylum here.

[Red909XMZ1]

I recently read in a court document that the second victim/witness who identified Clifton (and was sexually preyed upon by him) was in the orchard area where Donna's bike was found only 30 minutes before Donna's murder, and stated that Clifton was there.

I was shocked to read this, and this only strengthens my theory that Clifton murdered Donna.

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 8, 2019 15:20:37 GMT @wonkybob said:

<abbr class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1573226437000" title="Nov 8, 2019 7:20:37 GMT -8">Nov 8, 2019 7:20:37 GMT -8</abbr> Dr. Wonky said:


Well. I liked your post. It was well thought out. But how can you say "none of us know", but still say that Red is "dead on", when Red is so adamant that she does know. She has wavered and wobbled on her opinion of this matter multiple times. She has been adamant that Clifton didn't do it. Then later adamant that he did do it. I don't think she is dead on about anything

Ding ding!

I didn't know of this users turncoat past. But now being made aware of it, she has less credibility than I had previously thought.

And you are 100% right. She doesn't know anything. Until she does, but then doesn't after changing direction yet again..... hahaha

I at least can admit that indisputable evidence doesn't exist in either direction. My conviction is based off everything I laid out previously, including other factors outlined in the documentary that I didn't even mention.

This possibility is beyond real. That's why so many believe it to be true.

[Red909XMZ1]

Confirmation bias, groupthink, and the horn effect is the basis for some who believe JJD had to be the one who committed Donna's murder.

I base my speculation regarding Clifton based on evidence and witness/victim identification of him.

The problem, is, there is absolutely no evidence that JJD committed this crime, and no witnesses. Therefore, all that exists at this time is confirmation bias, groupthink, and the horn effect to wrongly accuse him.

[kg]

Nov 11, 2019 10:23:58 GMT The Usual Suspect said:

Nov 8, 2019 15:20:37 GMT @wonkybob said:

<abbr class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1573226437000" title="Nov 8, 2019 7:20:37 GMT -8">Nov 8, 2019 7:20:37 GMT -8</abbr> Dr. Wonky said:


Well. I liked your post. It was well thought out. But how can you say "none of us know", but still say that Red is "dead on", when Red is so adamant that she does know. She has wavered and wobbled on her opinion of this matter multiple times. She has been adamant that Clifton didn't do it. Then later adamant that he did do it. I don't think she is dead on about anything

Ding ding!

I didn't know of this users turncoat past. But now being made aware of it, she has less credibility than I had previously thought.

And you are 100% right. She doesn't know anything. Until she does, but then doesn't after changing direction yet again..... hahaha

I at least can admit that indisputable evidence doesn't exist in either direction. My conviction is based off everything I laid out previously, including other factors outlined in the documentary that I didn't even mention.

This possibility is beyond real. That's why so many believe it to be true.

I most prefer that neither JJD nor Clifton committed the actual murder but JJD helped facilitate.

[Red909XMZ1]

Groupthink, the horn effect, and confirmation bias is the only basis for wrongly accusing JJD.

Drifter was excellent about spotting groupthink and addressing it.

I am not adamant about anything.

I am just asking what any reasonable person would ask.

Where is the evidence and witnesses that prove JJD committed this crime?

[Red909XMZ1]

With groupthink, an individual is pressured, ostracized, and villainously categorized, due to having a separate opinion from the group.

Please stop doing that to me.

When I believed JJD was not a teenager, nor was his full-time job prowling, but was an older offender who was highly educated, had a military background, and was either a professor, doctor, or professional LE, I was vilified here.

The groupthink was incredible at the time.

I am proud to state I did not submit to the pressure of the group, and that I was on track when it came to JJD.

If someone could provide evidence - anything that JJD committed the murder of Donna Jo Richmond - I would be considering it.

The problem, is, no one has been able to do that.

[deejay]

1965. The woman who was harassed, the victim, and the man who rescued her identified Clifton. He admitted he "fell" on top of the victim. With a stocking over his head. On Redit the reporter for ABC said she interviewed the victim again and her story hasn't changed. They didn't air that though. There's a surprise. 

No Alibi. Clifton said he was with Bill Rose on the afternoon of Donna's murder. Bill Rose told police he wasn't. There goes Clifton's alibi even if a boy saw someone's white truck.

Witnesses. Too many girls identified Clifton as the man who harassed them. Less than an hour before Donna was taken. It hasn't been proven that they saw Oscar's picture before they made their id. Even if they did they still identified him and testified to it months later. It was the same pattern from 1965, Clifton harassing women before attacking.

Tire tracks. Oscar's truck had the same crossed tire configuration that was found at multiple parts of the murderer's path.

Ski mask. It was winter. A lot of people went skiing. The ski mask in the orchard could belong to anybody.

Is it plausible that Clifton dropped his invoice book, threw clothing out the window as he drove home, and found a way to clean himself off before he went inside his house? Murderers are caught doing dumber things than that.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 9, 2019 0:45:41 GMT Red909XMZ1 said:

I recently read in a court document that the second victim/witness who identified Clifton (and was sexually preyed upon by him) was in the orchard area where Donna's bike was found only 30 minutes before Donna's murder, and stated that Clifton was there.

I was shocked to read this, and this only strengthens my theory that Clifton murdered Donna.

The bike was close but not in the same orchard.  The bike was in a grove was W. of and kind of behind Donna's house on List.  Gloria Moscorro was working in a grove E. of the family home off Spruce north of List but almost at the corner of List and Spruce.  Still, that is one thing, if true that it was Clifton out there exposing himself to Gloria then that is too big of a coincidence for me and I'd vote him guilty.  BUT....I do think framing is a possibility.  If DeAngelo knew about Oscar and wanted to get the heat off himself for being the VR, he could have decided to frame Oscar.  He could have stolen the invoice book and dropped it by the bike and then threw the clothes out of the car on the way to Oscar's house.  It is possible that Sgt Byrd was determined to get Oscar that he was positive was guilty by tainting the witness by showing her Oscar's picture and maybe even talking to her and convincing her that she had to help him get a murder off the streets.

HOWEVER, to argue with myself, how did he know that Oscar didn't have an air tight alibi?  Possible answer, he was a cop in Exeter and may have spotted Oscar out there misbehaving and poor Donna just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

I have been wrestling with this forever, back and forth: 

Pro Oscar's guilt:    Gloria is the key for conviction in my eyes and the receipt book.

Pro Oscar being framed:  Oscar having a dirty truck yet not one shred of evidence in it, no blood, no DNA, no hair and no time to have cleaned it up.

Oscar had no cuts although Donna had been stabbed many times and no blood under fingernails or on clothes etc. 

Serial killer living and working in the area at the time.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 12, 2019 23:34:32 GMT deejay said:

1965. The woman who was harassed, the victim, and the man who rescued her identified Clifton. He admitted he "fell" on top of the victim. With a stocking over his head. On Redit the reporter for ABC said she interviewed the victim again and her story hasn't changed. They didn't air that though. There's a surprise. 

No Alibi. Clifton said he was with Bill Rose on the afternoon of Donna's murder. Bill Rose told police he wasn't. There goes Clifton's alibi even if a boy saw someone's white truck.

Witnesses. Too many girls identified Clifton as the man who harassed them. Less than an hour before Donna was taken. It hasn't been proven that they saw Oscar's picture before they made their id. Even if they did they still identified him and testified to it months later. It was the same pattern from 1965, Clifton harassing women before attacking.

Tire tracks. Oscar's truck had the same crossed tire configuration that was found at multiple parts of the murderer's path.

Ski mask. It was winter. A lot of people went skiing. The ski mask in the orchard could belong to anybody.

Is it plausible that Clifton dropped his invoice book, threw clothing out the window as he drove home, and found a way to clean himself off before he went inside his house? Murderers are caught doing dumber things than that.

I won't repeat what I just replied to red but just to add about the tires.  Read what the 12-25-75 podcasters have to say about the tires.  I can't repeat it clearly here but they say there never was a place where all 4 tires tracks were present.  It's a very important point.  I'd love to hear a rebuttal from LE on that one because if it's true that mismatched tires were in an x position and so were Oscar's then that is damming.  However they have a rebuttal to that.

[pod]

I still have a hard time accepting Donna was killed simply to frame someone else. It seems to me the way she was killed suggests something more than an execution. Do you know if she was stabbed post-mortem or not? I know she died due to strangulation. If the stabbing was post-mortem it might account for the lack of blood.

Just a thought.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 13, 2019 3:11:40 GMT pod said:

I still have a hard time accepting Donna was killed simply to frame someone else. It seems to me the way she was killed suggests something more than an execution. Do you know if she was stabbed post-mortem or not? I know she died due to strangulation. If the stabbing was post-mortem it might account for the lack of blood.

Just a thought.

The 12-25-75 podcasters make a lot of good points, but I still don't know what I believe myself.  To answer your question without trying to find all my notes or reread things, I know she was stabbed 17 times, she was apparently strangled and beaten.  I wonder if beaten is beyond being kicked in the face.  What a monster whoever it was that did this. 

Post mortem?  I don't know.  There was a lot of blood under her body where she bled out but no drag marks, her feet were clean her slacks were clean, there were things that make me think she was murdered in his vehicle.  If that is the case then how could they find no evidence in Oscar's truck?  Did he have access to a different truck?  Rick Carter, the boyfriend of Oscar's daughter, had his truck examined too. 

One thing that jumps off the page to me is that she was the kicked in the face, Beth Snelling was kicked in the face. 

The newspapers go with what the prosecutor and the police say, with no discernment.  They just accept what they are told.  It's been reported in all the papers that DNA cleared DeAngelo and that she was raped and was nude from the waist down, so it's obvious she was raped.  Tony Reid the lawyer/12-26-75 podcast counters that and makes very valid points that:
#1 the DNA absolutely did not clear DeAngelo
#2 that she was not raped, she was still a virgin (sound familiar)
#3 that there was no semen.   

It's a daunting task to listen to all the podcasts much less remember it all.  I recommend taking notes, and it's helpful to look at their interactive map etc. to not become hopelessly confused with all the names and dates and locations etc. 

There is a lot of information that most people do not know, like about like about the tires.

This link gives a good synopsis and it gives the other side of the story.  It does seem to favor the podcasters point of view and it does not include some damning things about Oscar.    Besides reading, you can Click on the program to hear the program and included is interviews with Sgt. Vaughn and what he has to say about framing. 

I usually tend to favor the cops and prosecution side of things frankly although I try to be fair and open minded.  I want the right person convicted, so I think that tends to be my natural bias, however in this case, I'm seeing things that might make me think otherwise.  I really don't know.  

www.abc10.com/article/news/local/abc10-originals/framed-by-the-golden-state-killer/103-20893343-62c5-4898-a4d2-c9df2b8985df

[Deleted]

I don’t think that Donna’s clothes were thrown from the window of a moving vehicle. I think that each item was placed where it was found by someone who pulled over, stopped and got out and put it there.

[zorro]

I'm convinced Clifton was framed...who better to frame someone than a cop? A ransacking-rapist-serial killer-cop!
The brutal nature of Donna's murder, is something someone doesn't do just once in their life then stop, this was the act of a compulsive offender. Clifton may have had his problems but I don't think he was the psychopath Deangelo is.
Ask yourself this...What would have become of Beth Snelling if JJD's abduction went off as planned?...I think she would of wound up in close proximity to where Armour and Richmond were discovered.

The two witnesses against Clifton?....Somebody is wrong or lying here: you either have to believe Brumley and Mascorro OR you believe Trueblood and Guerber. Clifton couldn't be two places at the same time.

If you think it's unheard of that someone would bear false witness about something as serious as murder, remember what happened to Joe Alsip in Ventura...He was blamed and nearly convicted for the Smith's murders. Multiple people, including a Reverend lied in court about him, but thankfully justice prevailed and Alsip was acquitted.
Can you imagine if Alsip was found guilty and Ventura threw away all the evidence afterwards? Alsip would've died in prison like Clifton, and Deangelo would've gotten away clean. And we would have people here defending the verdict. His fingerprint was on the wine glass!...A Reverend wouldn't lie!