Framed by the Golden State Killer?

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 13, 2019 10:06:49 GMT zorro said:

I'm convinced Clifton was framed...who better to frame someone than a cop? A ransacking-rapist-serial killer-cop!
The brutal nature of Donna's murder, is something someone doesn't do just once in their life then stop, this was the act of a compulsive offender. Clifton may have had his problems but I don't think he was the psychopath Deangelo is.
Ask yourself this...What would have become of Beth Snelling if JJD's abduction went off as planned?...I think she would of wound up in close proximity to where Armour and Richmond were discovered.

The two witnesses against Clifton?....Somebody is wrong or lying here: you either have to believe Brumley and Mascorro OR you believe Trueblood and Guerber. Clifton couldn't be two places at the same time.

If you think it's unheard of that someone would bear false witness about something as serious as murder, remember what happened to Joe Alsip in Ventura...He was blamed and nearly convicted for the Smith's murders. Multiple people, including a Reverend lied in court about him, but thankfully justice prevailed and Alsip was acquitted.
Can you imagine if Alsip was found guilty and Ventura threw away all the evidence afterwards? Alsip would've died in prison like Clifton, and Deangelo would've gotten away clean. And we would have people here defending the verdict. His fingerprint was on the wine glass!...A Reverend wouldn't lie!

So many good points., Zorro.

Also, the cop, DeAngelo, I believe would have known about Clifton and his attempted rape record from 10 years before.

Framing, I do believe that JJD framed other people a number of times.

Avery Doula, Clifton's brother in law, was broken into 4 times.  He lived right across the street from Oscar,  way out in the boonies.

Oscar's invoice book wipe off so no fingerprints on the outside.  Was it wiped to be sure JJD's prints were not on the cover?

You have found a possible connection to Jennifer Armour's relative, and Dwayne Thompson, DeAngelo's brother in law.  that is interesting.  

I think it's likely the same person killed Donna Richmond and Jennifer Armour, and possibly is the same person who attempted to abduct Beth Snelling, killing her father and possibly you are right that she may have ended up in the same area as Donna and Jennifer.  Jennifer murdered November 1974, Eva Taylor murdered April 1974.  The black and white striped ski mask matching the description of the one worn by Beth's abductor found in the same orange grove as where Donna's body was found.

The VR loot being thrown in the drainage ditch right across from Hypericum, the little street out in the middle of nowhere that Oscar's parents lived on.  (However the ditch was full of water at the time, and was thrown there 3 months before Donna was murdered.  Did he know the water would not always be there.  Who discovered it there, it was found.  Did he have Oscar in his sights for some future murder he was planning?  Did he already have a victim in mind or was Donna in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Detective Byrd was caught in several lies on the ABC 10 program.  Was he so convinced of Oscar's guilt because #1 finding Oscar's invoice book and #2 Oscar's attempted rape from 10 years before, that he was determined to not let him get away with it.  Did he convince witnesses to help him get a murderer off the streets.  Did the girls lie in the belief they were helping LE get a murderer?  If true I do not believe that will ever be admitted for fear of going to jail or being sued.

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 11, 2019 20:01:25 GMT kg said:

Nov 11, 2019 10:23:58 GMT The Usual Suspect said:

Ding ding!

I didn't know of this users turncoat past. But now being made aware of it, she has less credibility than I had previously thought.

And you are 100% right. She doesn't know anything. Until she does, but then doesn't after changing direction yet again..... hahaha

I at least can admit that indisputable evidence doesn't exist in either direction. My conviction is based off everything I laid out previously, including other factors outlined in the documentary that I didn't even mention.

This possibility is beyond real. That's why so many believe it to be true.

I most prefer that neither JJD nor Clifton committed the actual murder but JJD helped facilitate.

That's also a distinct possibility. Nobody knows anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. We merely all have a strongly held conviction.

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 13, 2019 10:06:49 GMT zorro said:

I'm convinced Clifton was framed...who better to frame someone than a cop? A ransacking-rapist-serial killer-cop!
The brutal nature of Donna's murder, is something someone doesn't do just once in their life then stop, this was the act of a compulsive offender. Clifton may have had his problems but I don't think he was the psychopath Deangelo is.
Ask yourself this...What would have become of Beth Snelling if JJD's abduction went off as planned?...I think she would of wound up in close proximity to where Armour and Richmond were discovered.

The two witnesses against Clifton?....Somebody is wrong or lying here: you either have to believe Brumley and Mascorro OR you believe Trueblood and Guerber. Clifton couldn't be two places at the same time.

If you think it's unheard of that someone would bear false witness about something as serious as murder, remember what happened to Joe Alsip in Ventura...He was blamed and nearly convicted for the Smith's murders. Multiple people, including a Reverend lied in court about him, but thankfully justice prevailed and Alsip was acquitted.
Can you imagine if Alsip was found guilty and Ventura threw away all the evidence afterwards? Alsip would've died in prison like Clifton, and Deangelo would've gotten away clean. And we would have people here defending the verdict. His fingerprint was on the wine glass!...A Reverend wouldn't lie!

I'm right there with you, zorro!

IMO, it's clear as day JJD committed the crime and used his law enforcement connection to frame an innocent (of this particular crime) person that he knew would appear guilty due to his past.

Not only does it fit his MO, he was undoubtedly in a position to know the things he had to know and conveniently located to pull it off.

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 13, 2019 2:36:27 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Pro Oscar being framed:  Oscar having a dirty truck yet not one shred of evidence in it, no blood, no DNA, no hair and no time to have cleaned it up.

Oscar had no cuts although Donna had been stabbed many times and no blood under fingernails or on clothes etc. 

Serial killer living and working in the area at the time.

Careful enough to avoid all the physical evidence despite committing a physical murder then relocating the body to another location using his truck YET careless enough to leave his name at the scene and a trail of evidence all the way to his home.

Makes perfect sense, don't it?

IMO, there's no chance both are true.

Then add in your last sentence into the equation. Not only a serial rapist/killer, but one that ended up being the largest offender in the most populated state's history. And he was a law enforcement officer to boot! That resided in the immediate area and is now known to have been committing crimes behind the scenes at that exact time -- including attempted kidnapping and at least 1 known murder.

But, no, let's not assume that he had anything to do with it. In a very small town where things like that were extremely rare. I'm sure it's all just a large coincidence.

[pod]

Sandia,

I don't know what I believe either to be honest. We don't even know how Donna got into the orchard, whether she was taken in a truck or persuaded to go there under some kind of ruse. So many assumtions have to be made. Even the lack of evidence in the truck can point both ways. A few of Donna's hairs in the truck would be a very effective way of framing someone, if that was the intent.

I wish I could be as certain of Clifton's guilt or innocence as some feel. But I flip back and forth like... like... like something that flips back and forth.

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 14, 2019 3:18:41 GMT pod said:

Sandia,

I don't know what I believe either to be honest. We don't even know how Donna got into the orchard, whether she was taken in a truck or persuaded to go there under some kind of ruse. So many assumtions have to be made. Even the lack of evidence in the truck can point both ways. A few of Donna's hairs in the truck would be a very effective way of framing someone, if that was the intent.

I wish I could be as certain of Clifton's guilt or innocence as some feel. But I flip back and forth like... like... like something that flips back and forth.

Like a ping pong ball?  Like watching a tennis match?  LOL.  Well that kind of describes me.  You're right we just don't know everything but I've got to say the 12-26-75 podcasters have very extensive and detailed information.  I'm starting to lean more to thinking he was framed "if" I think that perhaps the girls were told Oscar was a mad dog rapist and he killed a young  teenager and they were convinced to "help".  I don't know though.  Of course I'm just conjecturing that possibility.   I can't say that happened.  

I don't think he'd risk going to Oscar's to plant hairs in his truck after Donna was murdered and he left Oscar's invoice book by her bike.  But stealing the invoice book ahead of time could make sense if this depraved murderer, JJD, considered himself a master criminal/puppet master who felt so clever that he could manipulate, plant evidence, frame people for his crimes.   I could see him doing that.  Keep in mind there were none of Donna's footprints by her bike, her feet and clothes were clean.  She didn't walk into the grove,  Maybe she was tossed out of the vehicle in the grove.  I just had a thought.  What if she was never in the cab of a truck?  What if she was knocked out, and tossed into the bed of the truck. (I wonder, was her jaw broken, she was beaten but I don't know the sickening details.)  Still if she was never in the cab, killed in the bed of the truck, the bed would be a lot easier to hose off and clean than inside the truck.  Still, getting rid of every bit of blood, hair etc. is very hard and maybe even impossible to do.  They even get murderers when they dismantle plumbing and find blood in the pipes of the sink.  

[Agent99 aka Sandia]

Nov 13, 2019 9:52:09 GMT steelbike said:

I don’t think that Donna’s clothes were thrown from the window of a moving vehicle. I think that each item was placed where it was found by someone who pulled over, stopped and got out and put it there.

I think that could be a very good point.  I have to reread parts.  I wonder what the measurement is from where the closest to where a vehicle could be to where certain light weight items were found.  Some of the light weight items could not be thrown far.  Her slacks were found in the middle of the roadway though.    Some items could not be thrown far.   It's hard to imagine a killer stopping and getting out of his truck though over and over.  

[pod]

Ping pong ball's good, but I don't bounce too well.

If it's true DeAngelo wouldn't risk planting evidence in the truck then it could indicate he worked alone, without other LE involvement. (Did Exeter PD actually go to Clifton's home, or was it Tulare?) If she was knocked out on the initial encounter, there might not be any blood involved at all. She might never have regained consciousness when he carried her from the truck.

I wonder how thorough forensics was at that time.

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 14, 2019 3:18:41 GMT pod said:

Even the lack of evidence in the truck can point both ways. A few of Donna's hairs in the truck would be a very effective way of framing someone, if that was the intent.

Unlike the book or clothing, planting the victims hair inside the truck would have been harder and a lot more risky to pull off. Otherwise, I agree with you.

The book was stolen beforehand and the clothing planted in the immediate aftermath of the crime. Easier and more convenient to do. But to then collect hair or other physical evidence from the victim then locate OC's truck to then somehow plant the evidence inside .... I can easily see why he wouldn't have gone that far.

[sammyt]

Nov 14, 2019 1:47:33 GMT The Usual Suspect said:

Nov 13, 2019 2:36:27 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

Pro Oscar being framed:  Oscar having a dirty truck yet not one shred of evidence in it, no blood, no DNA, no hair and no time to have cleaned it up.

Oscar had no cuts although Donna had been stabbed many times and no blood under fingernails or on clothes etc. 

Serial killer living and working in the area at the time.

Careful enough to avoid all the physical evidence despite committing a physical murder then relocating the body to another location using his truck YET careless enough to leave his name at the scene and a trail of evidence all the way to his home.

Makes perfect sense, don't it?

IMO, there's no chance both are true.

Then add in your last sentence into the equation. Not only a serial rapist/killer, but one that ended up being the largest offender in the most populated state's history. And he was a law enforcement officer to boot! That resided in the immediate area and is now known to have been committing crimes behind the scenes at that exact time -- including attempted kidnapping and at least 1 known murder.

But, no, let's not assume that he had anything to do with it. In a very small town where things like that were extremely rare. I'm sure it's all just a large coincidence.

It is all highly suspect, but how would JJD have known that Clifton would just happen to be loitering around nearby that day?

If Clifton wasn't out prowling and flashing girls that day, then what was he doing loitering about?  Just going for a walk in the area?

What if Clifton had been called into work, or had decided to spend the day with family, or drinking in a local bar?  Would a possible Clifton alibi have caused JJD to just abandon his murderous plan?

If JJD was the framing killer, then he got amazingly lucky with how Clifton behaved.

If Clifton was innocent, then he was amazingly unlucky...

[zebra]

Nov 14, 2019 3:34:33 GMT Agent99 aka Sandia said:

… I don't think he'd risk going to Oscar's to plant hairs in his truck after Donna was murdered and he left Oscar's invoice book by her bike.  But stealing the invoice book ahead of time could make sense if this depraved murderer, JJD, considered himself a master criminal/puppet master who felt so clever that he could manipulate, plant evidence, frame people for his crimes.   I could see him doing that.  ...

I think the podcasters' main theory is that the perpetrator originally intended to frame Clifton by planting some of the victim's clothes in his vehicle. However, when he arrived, there were actually two pickups there and he wasn't sure which was Clifton's or which he'd been driving that day. Dropping off the clothing would backfire if he put it in the wrong truck. So he grabbed an item from each truck (the never-identified notepad from one and the ledger from the other) and drove back to the grove to drop them both by the bike. On the way back, he threw out the clothing to create a trail (which is how it wound up on that side of the road.)

If this is what happened, it does raise two issues. The pickups weren't the same color. Only one was white. So if one assumes that JJD was trying to frame Clifton earlier that day with the other two incidents, he must have known that Clifton owned the white pickup. So why would he be confused?

Second, the ledger had Clifton's name on it, so why wouldn't he know at that point which truck was Clifton's based on the truck in which it was found?

Maybe the more likely explanation (consistent with this theory) is that he originally intended to plant the clothing in Clifton's truck, but after he found the ledger there, he decided that was all he really needed - and even better than clothing since it would immediately alert police to Clifton as a suspect if he dropped it off at the bike scene-  and that planting bloody clothes in the pickup would be a little too obvious since most perp would try to get rid of them. So instead, the clothing was discarded on the way back in breadcrumb fashion.        

[The Usual Suspect]

Nov 14, 2019 12:29:51 GMT sammyt said:

It is all highly suspect, but how would JJD have known that Clifton would just happen to be loitering around nearby that day?

Knowing what we know about JJD and his methodical planning and prowling techniques -- and that he was a law enforcement officer at the time -- I should think he knew what Clifton's routine was.

[sammyt]

Nov 15, 2019 12:04:16 GMT The Usual Suspect said:

Nov 14, 2019 12:29:51 GMT sammyt said:

It is all highly suspect, but how would JJD have known that Clifton would just happen to be loitering around nearby that day?

Knowing what we know about JJD and his methodical planning and prowling techniques -- and that he was a law enforcement officer at the time -- I should think he knew what Clifton's routine was.

Yes, that's very possible, and I'm no expert on this particular murder.  JJD was certainly a patient offender, capable of long term stalking of potential victims.

I know this case was always a controversial one though, and the emergence of DeAngelo certainly throws 'reasonable doubt' upon Clifton's guilt.

If I was on a jury, I certainly wouldn't be able to convict Clifton of this crime.

In general, I find it extremely unlikely that Officer Joe wasn't trying to frame others for some of his crimes.

[Deleted]

I’m listening to you know which podcast (hopefully for the last time) and a couple of things: it hadn’t been clear to me before but Donna Richmond was murdered where she was found. Did Oscar encounter her near there? Was that along a route that she would have been taking from her boyfriend’s home to hers? I don’t think so but I’ll look at the map again. If so, why would Oscar have moved he bicycle to where it was found? If not, how was Oscar able to abduct her and take her there? We know that JJD could have — he had a badge and a gun and was the EAR and that’s what he did.

Also, the woman in the orange grove who Oscar supposedly flashed stated several times that the man was wearing glasses with thick black frames. I’ve not seen any photos of Oscar wearing any such. That sounds like a disguise to me.

The woman’s father did see a white pickup in the vicinity a short time after the incident but described it as a Dodge — not a Ford. That truck backed out of a parking lot in front of a bar nearby as the father was walking toward it. Would Oscar have stopped nearby if he had just done what he was alleged to have? The EAR may have waited there to make sure someone else saw the white truck.

I think that it may have been that Clifton wasn’t around in the orange grove. The flasher may have been the Cordova Flasher.

The best evidence that I’ve heard implicating Clifton is the invoice book and that the flasher wore a white sweater. That’s it.

[Deleted]

Then, there would be the necessary coincidences of the EAR having a disguise that included a white sweater handy and also that he knew where Donna Richmond would be minutes after the flashing incident.