I Pushed Jerry Out

[leithmick]

Aug 4, 2022 2:56:53 GMT mtf65 said:

Aug 3, 2022 23:31:43 GMT andrew said:

totally different MO. Zodiac wasnt a sex killer but jjd was a complete sex killer

Your just giving me crap, right? Sorry, I should have said other than MO.  Please, please give me some other reasons.  Does the guy your looking at have an MO that would lead you to believe he killed in the way the Zodiac did?  What suspects do you know that have a known Zodiac MO that were in CA at the time and are good suspects.  I am all for considering them as the Zodiac.  JJD was a murderer and that is key. Snelling and Maggoires were not sexual murders.  They had a sexual component but the reason for the murders were not sexual.  Your reasoning is similar to saying the ONS couldn't be the murderer of Snelling because the MO didn't fit.  With Snelling he was taking Beth from the house but ONS didn't do that because the ONS murders were all indoors at the home of the victims.  The reason we know about his murders is because he left DNA. Maybe jjd did have nonsexual murders but we don't know about them because he didn't leave DNA.  Seriously,  someone just tell me why it isn't him.  Surely Tony Reid can do it.  He seems smarter than most of the people on these forums and he is trying and hasn't done it yet.  Tony, please just prove it isn't him.  In the meantime JJD seems like a great suspect to me.

He’s not ‘giving you crap’; you asked him why and he gave you a perfectly legitimate answer. You’re the one who turned around and said ‘give me an answer, except that one’.

Also, ‘prove it isn’t him’ isn’t how criminal investigations or the criminal justice system work, thank goodness. The burden of proof is on you, not the other way about, and frankly, you’ve provided absolutely no evidence whatsoever other than he happened to be an offender operating in Northern California in the mid-1970s. That isn’t proof.

[murderinc]

MO can't be used to rule out a connection between crimes because it's a myth that offenders can't/don't vary the way they do things. It's hysterical this still has to be explained to people on the Golden State Killer forum, where linkage blindness due to the myth of "different MO" is directly responsible for police failing to solve this case by linking the Visalia Ransacker to the EAR, the EAR to the ONS, etc.

[kg]

Aug 4, 2022 15:28:20 GMT murderinc said:

MO can't be used to rule out a connection between crimes because it's a myth that offenders can't/don't vary the way they do things. It's hysterical this still has to be explained to people on the Golden State Killer forum, where linkage blindness due to the myth of "different MO" is directly responsible for police failing to solve this case by linking the Visalia Ransacker to the EAR, the EAR to the ONS, etc.

[br

Exactly. I can choose to do things differently than I normally do everyday of my life. That option is available to criminals too.

[johnnyhands1]

Aug 4, 2022 15:28:20 GMT murderinc said:

MO can't be used to rule out a connection between crimes because it's a myth that offenders can't/don't vary the way they do things. It's hysterical this still has to be explained to people on the Golden State Killer forum, where linkage blindness due to the myth of "different MO" is directly responsible for police failing to solve this case by linking the Visalia Ransacker to the EAR, the EAR to the ONS, etc.

And if you were, say, developing a profile and profession for the kind of sexual criminal likely to vary MO - as well as commit crimes just to befuddle the police, wouldn't a four-year-degree cop be at the top of your list?

EDIT: two answers to the above question, if you like:

Pre-arrest? (unknown suspect)

Post-arrest?  (Officer JJD, B.S. Police Science/Sac State, GSK-guilty/admitted)

Don't forget the framing, staging and misdirect, nor the likely Tulare Cat, nor the highly LE-suspected Cordova Cat just after graduation!

[murderinc]

Aug 5, 2022 2:19:19 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Aug 4, 2022 15:28:20 GMT murderinc said:

MO can't be used to rule out a connection between crimes because it's a myth that offenders can't/don't vary the way they do things. It's hysterical this still has to be explained to people on the Golden State Killer forum, where linkage blindness due to the myth of "different MO" is directly responsible for police failing to solve this case by linking the Visalia Ransacker to the EAR, the EAR to the ONS, etc.

highly LE-suspected Cordova Cat just after graduation!

Are you aware that Murder Inc. uncovered and featured a classified in the Auburn Journal of a pair of prescription sunglasses in a Bay Area Union Professional Center case missing from Shirland Tract Rd between Crockett & Scotts Corner in Auburn from 1971? These glasses match the exact description of the ones left by the Cat. Do you know how close that location is to DeAngelo's Auburn ranch where he appears to have still been living in 1971?

[johnnyhands1]

Aug 5, 2022 4:38:59 GMT murderinc said:

Aug 5, 2022 2:19:19 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

highly LE-suspected Cordova Cat just after graduation!

Are you aware that Murder Inc. uncovered and featured a classified in the Auburn Journal of a pair of prescription sunglasses in a Bay Area Union Professional Center case missing from Shirland Tract Rd between Crockett & Scotts Corner in Auburn from 1971? These glasses match the exact description of the ones left by the Cat. Do you know how close that location is to DeAngelo's Auburn ranch where he appears to have still been living in 1971?

I remember reading about the glasses, but didn't remember the Cordova Cat connection.

Can you give us that link again?

[murderinc]

Aug 5, 2022 9:22:03 GMT johnnyhands1 said:

Aug 5, 2022 4:38:59 GMT murderinc said:

Are you aware that Murder Inc. uncovered and featured a classified in the Auburn Journal of a pair of prescription sunglasses in a Bay Area Union Professional Center case missing from Shirland Tract Rd between Crockett & Scotts Corner in Auburn from 1971? These glasses match the exact description of the ones left by the Cat. Do you know how close that location is to DeAngelo's Auburn ranch where he appears to have still been living in 1971?

I remember reading about the glasses, but didn't remember the Cordova Cat connection.

Can you give us that link again?

[andrew]

zodiac killed and wrote coded letters and was said to be heavy set etc and jjd was slim and a sex rapist, serial killer and burglar how on earth can anyone say its the same guy? Most serial killers dont change MO that dramatically, their crimes are so different

[murderinc]

Aug 5, 2022 23:31:06 GMT andrew said:

zodiac killed and wrote coded letters and was said to be heavy set etc and jjd was slim and a sex rapist, serial killer and burglar how on earth can anyone say its the same guy? Most serial killers dont change MO that dramatically, their crimes are so different

I know right! One guy wore a homemade hood and a utility belt, carried a gun and knife and when he attacked a couple he told them "he only wanted money" and then had the female bind the male with clothesline! And the other guy.... oh wait....

[thetriplelindy]

I haven't read this discussion in a while, but I remember most of it being about two lines of thinking: 1) "Jerry" being some type of imagined character or an expression of Deangelo's mental illness (real or put on) or 2) Jerry being an accomplice to his crimes.

I have two more possible explanations...

First, "Jerry" could be used as a slang term for Germans (common during WW2). If, for example, there was some trauma related to Germans during the period when Deangelo's father was stationed in Germany saying he pushed Jerry out could mean he thought he had rid himself of that trauma. Similarly, Jerry could be a real person, but again a memory of a past trauma or event related to that person and not an imagined person or an accomplice.

[thetriplelindy]

Along the same lines, I've been thinking about the claim that Deangelo witnessed his sister's abuse in Germany as one traumatic event that may help explain some of his motivation toward violent sexual crime. It's notable that 7 of the first 10 EAR crimes involved teenage girls (including the two victims that were 19). I wonder if there was some aspect of re-experiencing that trauma his sister endured, at least in those early crimes. If that original trauma is linked to "Jerry" in some way, then maybe that's why Deangelo felt as though he was "made to do it".

And, one last point -- when Deangelo said he hated Bonnie after an attack, many people on this board felt like that was most likely misdirection to mislead the investigation. It turned out Bonnie was real. Whether it's an accomplice or otherwise, the Bonnie precedent makes me think Jerry's real, too.

[chrisdesigner1971]

Jul 5, 2020 0:46:15 GMT kg said:

Have we retrospectively analyzed the ‘Somebody please help me. I don’t want to do this anymore?’ This seems to fit with the ‘I pushed him out’.

More evidence that he was not in control of himself. But it seems likely, as the victims seem to have believed, that these pleas were genuine. The evidence seems to indicate taking his comments during attacks at face value is the more accurate perspective though it still doesn’t mean all of it was true.

This also reminds me of the Melvin Belli letter, which says "Please help me.". And as far as Jerry, it's another weird coincidence...The Good Citizens letter, of which the author was never identified, claimed "I get the name Jerry".

[elroacho]

I saw the FOIA thread and said why not go directly to the source, googled Joseph Joe DeAngelo prison address(yes, I know this info is not public but tried anyway) and I found this entry in the Library Of Congress Music Current and Renewal Registrations January - June 1971 via google books.

la promesa d'amore

Look for the yellow mark on the right slider and click to see the entry, click on the + sign in the upper left corner to magnify it. According to Bonnie she kicked him to the curb in the spring of 1971 and he made his aborted kidnapping attempt soon after, did he copyright a love song to her? Of course I don't know if this is him or not and I found nothing else by this name but it would be wild if it was, anyone have an account with the Library of Congress? Would love to see this if possible. My apologies if this is way off base and its a possibility I'm embarrassing myself.

[johnnyhands1]

Apr 6, 2024 19:38:47 GMT elroacho said:

I saw the FOIA thread and said why not go directly to the source, googled Joseph Joe DeAngelo prison address(yes, I know this info is not public but tried anyway) and I found this entry in the Library Of Congress Music Current and Renewal Registrations January - June 1971 via google books.

la promesa d'amore

Look for the yellow mark on the right slider and click to see the entry, click on the + sign in the upper left corner to magnify it. According to Bonnie she kicked him to the curb in the spring of 1971 and he made his aborted kidnapping attempt soon after, did he copyright a love song to her? Of course I don't know if this is him or not and I found nothing else by this name but it would be wild if it was, anyone have an account with the Library of Congress? Would love to see this if possible. My apologies if this is way off base and its a possibility I'm embarrassing myself.

Can you do a search for all songs written by Joe Deangelo? Maybe directly in the Library of Congress or whatever place songs are registered. That might make it clearer it was a different person.

[almagata]

Apr 6, 2024 19:38:47 GMT elroacho said:

I saw the FOIA thread and said why not go directly to the source, googled Joseph Joe DeAngelo prison address(yes, I know this info is not public but tried anyway) and I found this entry in the Library Of Congress Music Current and Renewal Registrations January - June 1971 via google books.

la promesa d'amore

Look for the yellow mark on the right slider and click to see the entry, click on the + sign in the upper left corner to magnify it. According to Bonnie she kicked him to the curb in the spring of 1971 and he made his aborted kidnapping attempt soon after, did he copyright a love song to her? Of course I don't know if this is him or not and I found nothing else by this name but it would be wild if it was, anyone have an account with the Library of Congress? Would love to see this if possible. My apologies if this is way off base and its a possibility I'm embarrassing myself.

You can email a librarian on the Library of Congress website and see what they say.