where do you think ONS is NOW?

[agatha]

Dec 5, 2013 6:21:46 GMT Drifter said:

quote from tongue:
"im keeping fingers crossed about GSK being found out but imo, he is not married with children, he may have a girlfriend but thats it..i could be wrong."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Agree. But I doubt that he even has a girlfriend. And that assumes he is still alive, of which I am skeptical.

Playinem121 makes a fine case for his position. (And ... with "accoutrements"; first time I have seen that word on this message board ... would like to see playinem121 post more often).

But here we go again comparing the Original Night Stalker to BTK and other captured criminals ...

Like you, tongue, I could very well be wrong in saying that the guy is not married + kids.

But the ONS is not comparable to other captured criminals, if for no other reason than differences in brain structure and chemistry. Serial killers are not infused with identical brains; they are not robots.

Hi Drifter, I love it that you and I always seem to fall on opposite sides of this issue. I hear your point. Let me tell you why I think he is hiding in plain sight, as an average family man. His crimes were calculated, extremely well planned, careful, attentive to detail; he learned from his mistakes. His MO changed as LE learned more about him. He took heed of what cops told the media, and adjusted his technique accordingly. He moved to an entirely different jurisdiction before escalating to murder. This all smacks of someone organized. To me, it looks more like psychopathy or a personality disorder and less like schizophrenia or overt mental illness. I may be making far too many uneducated assumptions here, but I think I've read that schizophrenics, people who are hallucinating, tend to get sloppy and loose caution in their crimes over time, perhaps as their mental state continues to deteriorate. But a psychopath is a different story. He is someone who is motivated by self protection and narcissism before all else, and will follow a plan meticulously to avoid detection. A schizophrenic or overtly mentally ill person would have difficulty maintaining a functioning relationship and family life without attracting unwanted attention. This would be the sort of person who would be a loner, who would neglect personal hygiene, and who might exhibit bizarre behavior day to day. The psychopath is a chameleon, and might surround himself with the trappings of normalcy as cover. I am looking at the nature of the crimes and extrapolating to a perpetrator that holds himself in tight control,( a la my Poster Boy, Rader.). Had the crimes been more crazy, ( involving really extreme things like writing pentagrams on the wall in blood, or cannibalism, like good old Hadden Clarke), then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, that this guy probably lives under a bridge. Convince me I'm wrong! I double dog dare you.

[Greg]

Even if he did have a wife and kids, I don't think that would even stop him from killing. He was adaptable so he would have just re-organised to suit himself. There are at least 10 individuals I can think of that carried on killing even when they were married. Every case must be taken on its own merits, though.

If we assume (and until I see otherwise), that Janelle Cruz was his last victim, then the question becomes why did he stop or what stopped him?

The only things I can think of is that he found another outlet for his fantasies, or he was incapacitated or died.

The other hypothetical is: he got so good at it he really knew how to cover his tracks, but as there is no such thing as "the perfect crime", I can't see that method taking place.

[Drifter]

quote from agatha:
"Had the crimes been more crazy, ( involving really extreme things like writing pentagrams on the wall in blood, or cannibalism, like good old Hadden Clarke), then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, that this guy probably lives under a bridge. Convince me I'm wrong! I double dog dare you.
----------------------------------------------------------------

"lives under a bridge". LOL

Oh I don't disagree with you on a lot of what you have said re: his personality. He exhibited signs of OCD (which hasn't been talked about too much here but was at the A&E message board). An OCD person is very much a perfectionist. And the guy's behavior smacks of at least semi-perfectionism.

"Convince me I'm wrong!"

Well, it's after 5:00 a.m. local time; so I'll have to beg off on that now. Actually, I'm not really sure I want to convince you that you're wrong. What I'd rather do is re-visit some of my own assumptions. 

[Greg]

OCD is a difficult one to apply to serial killers . A serial killer tends to have 5 phases:

1) A cycle of fantasy
2) The compulsion to act out the fantasy
3) Relief of tension
4) Depression
5) Back to fantasizing

The fantasy aspect is indicative of OCD. People who have intrusive "bad thoughts" as a result of OCD are aware of the negativity of these thoughts and understand that they are undesirable and do not want to think of them. Most of these serial killers, while having violent fantasies, do not seem to have any history of wanting to supress them, and from a young age most seem to be very comfortable with the fantasies and don't regard them as something intrusive.

"Intrusive thoughts" seem to be the only aspect of OCD that might fit these serial killers. I can't think of many who displayed any other OCD behavior. Some of the criteria for having "Obessions" include:

"Recurrent and persistent thoughts, impulses, or images that are experienced at some time during the disturbance, as intrusive and inappropriate and that cause marked anxiety or distress.
The person attempts to ignore or suppress such thoughts, impulses, or images, or to neutralize them with some other thought or action."

These seem like things that wouldn't occur with serial killers, as they are in no way "distressed" by their fantasies (more often than not they probably enjoy them - serial killers often describe the fantasies as something more pleasing than the murders themselves) and generally don't engage in any routines to try and supress these thoughts.

[Deleted]

Dec 5, 2013 2:13:27 GMT lepke said:

I think that the fantasies were the beginning for EAR/ONS, the attacks the middle, and the memories the end.

I don't think you can accurately categorize that simplistically. The attacks and the offender's memories of them will be very important certainly but his fantasies beginning before probably any overt criminal activity, continuing through his activities and beyond them will not only be a catalyst for his criminal acts but also a major component in his reliving and enjoying the memories of those exploits. The attacks...the memories they are all threads in the richly woven tapestry of EAR/ONS fantasy life. IMO

[jkearns]

Dec 5, 2013 1:19:47 GMT mb said:

Agatha, I absolutely believe these guys pick submissive wives. They aren't capable of having a healthy interpersonal relationship, so they pick a partner who is damaged or needy enough that she doesn't dare rock the boat by addressing problems. Whoever this guy's wife is, she's either in extreme denial, or he has something to hold over her, whether it's financial security or something else.

Well he doesn't need to pick a submissive women .  A lot of abused, suffer i silence women,,before they became  that way,,,,, were outgoing ,healthy ,happy   They get taken in by superficial charrn

Slowly get beat down  .Isolated from family and friends    Get pregnant  children involved harder to leave relationship   Walking on eggshells living the life of an abused women   But i could still

see him more with an Asian from oversea   One who doesn't really talk to anyone  but him   Mostly   to  answer questions,, never inititiate conversation  His word is law   Not minding  it because thats the   she was raised

[lepke]

Dec 5, 2013 16:26:37 GMT jkearns said:

Dec 5, 2013 1:19:47 GMT mb said:

Agatha, I absolutely believe these guys pick submissive wives. They aren't capable of having a healthy interpersonal relationship, so they pick a partner who is damaged or needy enough that she doesn't dare rock the boat by addressing problems. Whoever this guy's wife is, she's either in extreme denial, or he has something to hold over her, whether it's financial security or something else.

Well he doesn't need to pick a submissive women .  A lot of abused, suffer i silence women,,before they became  that way,,,,, were outgoing ,healthy ,happy   They get taken in by superficial charrn

Slowly get beat down  .Isolated from family and friends    Get pregnant  children involved harder to leave relationship   Walking on eggshells living the life of an abused women   But i could still

see him more with an Asian from oversea   One who doesn't really talk to anyone  but him   Mostly   to  answer questions,, never inititiate conversation  His word is law   Not minding  it because thats the   she was raised

Something like a mail order bride?

[lepke]

Dec 5, 2013 14:33:09 GMT @playinem121 said:

Dec 5, 2013 2:13:27 GMT lepke said:

I think that the fantasies were the beginning for EAR/ONS, the attacks the middle, and the memories the end.

I don't think you can accurately categorize that simplistically. The attacks and the offender's memories of them will be very important certainly but his fantasies beginning before probably any overt criminal activity, continuing through his activities and beyond them will not only be a catalyst for his criminal acts but also a major component in his reliving and enjoying the memories of those exploits. The attacks...the memories they are all threads in the richly woven tapestry of EAR/ONS fantasy life. IMO

I meant that in the sense of looking at each attack individually. If EAR/ONS is alive and not attacking, then while he would likely still fantasize, he has a lot of memories to look back on, which in his evil mind, probably gives him more pleasure than just imagining doing something.

[jkearns]

Dec 5, 2013 17:57:44 GMT portofleith said:

I think we also need to keep in mind that his fantasies most likely extended beyond his victims. Pool has stated that GSK was most likely into bondage in his dealings with women outside of those he raped and murder. The FDLE states:

"His appetite for sadistic sex would be described as insatiable.
Women who have had sexual relationships with this type of offender reported
that anal intercourse eventually became the regular routine and vaginal
intercourse ceased. In addition, women involved with these offenders have
reported being strangled to the point of unconsciousness during sexual acts.
This type of offender seeks sex with compliant victims to include prostitutes.
We believe it was likely that your offender likely engaged in sex with
prostitutes. He would have engaged in the same type of sexual acts with the
prostitutes as he did with his victims. The insatiable appetite for sexual bondage,
mastery and control would all be central themes to the sex acts performed."

This reminds me of a serial killer in Virginia who would abduct and rape young girls from their own front yards.  He married a young virgin and would tie her to the bed for hours and she was so naive she thought this was normal sexual behavior.  If GSK were married, I imagine his spouse to be very isolated and/or his marriage(s) did not last very long.

Whats odd is during the peak of the EAR era   they checked with so many hookers none of them were a hit   Unless he raped so often it minimized his need  and during his ONS faze he saw more  Which didn't matter cause there wasn't the big manhunt    But im sure he liked the same prosititutes as the same race as is vics   mostly white   Also his performance issues may have kept him seeing as many as pool might think   But  then  pool has more info about the details then me       But pool might be wrong about the anal   Cause he always seemed so vanilla    Mostly missionary   
 mostly clothed    not really leanihg on them      Like he distancing himself emotionally or whatever     Most guys lean hard unless there really big  i imagine    But pool knows more about case then i do
 Also not every prostitute be up for the kink a guy like EAR might need to get off     Not off the bat   He might have some regulars that after he seen them regularly might gradually allow add more kink in
  once they felt they weren't going to lose their lives

[Greg]

Maybe he didn't lower himself to prostitutes. It is possible he had a bigger hatred / grudge of middle class women, and saw prostitutes as being unworthy of his attention.

The fact that a sweep of prostitutes not being in contact with someone as prolific as this is strange.

[jkearns]

Like i said more access to case files  something like that changes a profile     It shows Comptons not a writer if he would have hired a really good writer .. Coauthor .. who could fix the inconsistencies             Toss in  sick * like that      Tie up loose ends    Book might have made NY times bestseller list    Everyone be talking about it Thanks for setting me straight

[agatha]

Dec 5, 2013 11:11:14 GMT Drifter said:

quote from agatha:
"Had the crimes been more crazy, ( involving really extreme things like writing pentagrams on the wall in blood, or cannibalism, like good old Hadden Clarke), then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, that this guy probably lives under a bridge. Convince me I'm wrong! I double dog dare you.
----------------------------------------------------------------

"lives under a bridge". LOL

Oh I don't disagree with you on a lot of what you have said re: his personality. He exhibited signs of OCD (which hasn't been talked about too much here but was at the A&E message board). An OCD person is very much a perfectionist. And the guy's behavior smacks of at least semi-perfectionism.

"Convince me I'm wrong!"

Well, it's after 5:00 a.m. local time; so I'll have to beg off on that now. Actually, I'm not really sure I want to convince you that you're wrong. What I'd rather do is re-visit some of my own assumptions. 

Fair enough. Did you catch the seasonally appropriate challenge?

[tongue]

well, as far as the wife knowing or finding little details and thinking her hubby is a killer..look at GRK Gary Ridgeway, one night he came home in the middle of the night dirty and exhausted...his wife was startled, surprised and asked him where he had been, he told her he was 'out helping his friend get his car out of a ditch'...she seemed to understand this response and simply went to bed, thinking nothing of it...years later after he was arrested, she put 2 and 2 together..

i have no doubt that GSK has some personality disorder but which one it is, i have no idea..no way do i see him being schizophrenic as usually they are not high functioning and meticulous as GSK was when he was active..i think GSK is going to break the mold somewhat if he is ever arrested in terms of profiling..well maybe not break the mold but make a little fold in it..

now my gut feeling is GSK died late 90s, early 2000s from disease or accident of some sort, NOT a bungled home invasion..im back and forth with GSK but one thing i stand firm on is his family or lack thereof..

[tongue]

Dec 5, 2013 18:37:26 GMT Greg said:

Maybe he didn't lower himself to prostitutes. It is possible he had a bigger hatred / grudge of middle class women, and saw prostitutes as being unworthy of his attention.

The fact that a sweep of prostitutes not being in contact with someone as prolific as this is strange.

  again, just a guess but i think GSK might have tried out prostitutes in the very beginning of his crime career but grew tired quickly or like greg said, he felt they were beneath him..i just dont see GSK being the type to see prostitutes on the regular.. 

  Pool also said that you can not go by any of the composites seen on the documentaries about GSK..

[mb]

Dec 5, 2013 10:14:07 GMT agatha said:

Dec 5, 2013 6:21:46 GMT Drifter said:

quote from tongue:
"im keeping fingers crossed about GSK being found out but imo, he is not married with children, he may have a girlfriend but thats it..i could be wrong."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Agree. But I doubt that he even has a girlfriend. And that assumes he is still alive, of which I am skeptical.

Playinem121 makes a fine case for his position. (And ... with "accoutrements"; first time I have seen that word on this message board ... would like to see playinem121 post more often).

But here we go again comparing the Original Night Stalker to BTK and other captured criminals ...

Like you, tongue, I could very well be wrong in saying that the guy is not married + kids.

But the ONS is not comparable to other captured criminals, if for no other reason than differences in brain structure and chemistry. Serial killers are not infused with identical brains; they are not robots.

Hi Drifter, I love it that you and I always seem to fall on opposite sides of this issue. I hear your point. Let me tell you why I think he is hiding in plain sight, as an average family man. His crimes were calculated, extremely well planned, careful, attentive to detail; he learned from his mistakes. His MO changed as LE learned more about him. He took heed of what cops told the media, and adjusted his technique accordingly. He moved to an entirely different jurisdiction before escalating to murder. This all smacks of someone organized. To me, it looks more like psychopathy or a personality disorder and less like schizophrenia or overt mental illness. I may be making far too many uneducated assumptions here, but I think I've read that schizophrenics, people who are hallucinating, tend to get sloppy and loose caution in their crimes over time, perhaps as their mental state continues to deteriorate. But a psychopath is a different story. He is someone who is motivated by self protection and narcissism before all else, and will follow a plan meticulously to avoid detection. A schizophrenic or overtly mentally ill person would have difficulty maintaining a functioning relationship and family life without attracting unwanted attention. This would be the sort of person who would be a loner, who would neglect personal hygiene, and who might exhibit bizarre behavior day to day. The psychopath is a chameleon, and might surround himself with the trappings of normalcy as cover. I am looking at the nature of the crimes and extrapolating to a perpetrator that holds himself in tight control,( a la my Poster Boy, Rader.). Had the crimes been more crazy, ( involving really extreme things like writing pentagrams on the wall in blood, or cannibalism, like good old Hadden Clarke), then I'd be more inclined to agree with you, that this guy probably lives under a bridge. Convince me I'm wrong! I double dog dare you.

Regarding a psychopath being extremely organized, and dedicated to his agenda, I've wondered if the GSK planned to stop at a specific time, his "planned exile". Maybe Janelle Cruz was so tempting to him that he came out of exile to murder her, then slipped back into the anonymity of his "planned exile".